Belay question from a multipitch noob

If you're looking for topics to learn about, I'd put munter hitches a few stages before guide mode.

Apparently also being a multipitch noob, I dropped my ATC at the end of p1 on the last multipitch I did. I feel great shame. But also indifference, because I hadn't dropped all the locking carabiners :)

I'm mentioning munters because this thread ended up in escaping the belay by belaying directly off the anchor territory. If you are going down that direct belay path, guide mode isn't the only option in town, and has the downsides mentioned.

+1 for Stich and Mountainhick

+1 for Bill, Stich, and Mountainhick.  Guide mode blows.  

Dave K wrote:

Please get some proper instruction before you hurt somebody.

Would you do me the favor of explaining where I’m wrong? It’s literally why I asked in the first place. For what it’s worth belaying with a munter and escaping a belay did come much earlier in my climbing experience, I just didn’t think I had to submit a resume to get a question answered.

You say you’re a multipitch noob and then you ask about GUIDE mode, what do you expect?  RGold was right in another thread where he said as soon as he saw guide mode devices he cringed (paraphrasing) because they would be misused. I love the option of guide mode but I didn’t use it until I had years of experience, and I only use it for convenience at appropriate times. It never streamlines a setup (except belaying two seconds) If you have to ask about guide mode you probably shouldn’t be using it.

Your statement doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. A redirect off the anchor uses a locker at the power point and a locker and belay device at your waist. It is very much like a top rope belay. Guide mode uses the same equipment (2 lockers and a belay device). If an anchor is setup well for guide mode (PowerPoint around face height) it’s also perfect for a redirect. With guide mode you’ll need more gear on hand if you need to lower. It’s MORE complicated. A redirect does not cause a two to one force on the anchor it only redirects the rope (for two to one the rope needs to travel twice as far, for example if the rope goes down to the follower thru a pulley and back up that’s a two to one, you have to pull in 2 feet of rope to raise the follower 1 foot). You don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about. That’s why he said get some instruction. 

Gloweringwrote: You don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about.

A redirect does not cause a two to one force on the anchor it only redirects the rope (for two to one the rope needs to travel twice as far, for example if the rope goes down to the follower thru a pulley and back up that’s a two to one, you have to pull in 2 feet of rope to raise the follower 1 foot). 

I love when people say "you don't sound like you know what you're talking about" and then don't know what they are talking about.  A redirect does nearly double the force on an anchor, in multi pitch and top rope (with the exception of friction reducing it to more like 1.7 x).  But doubling the force from a top rope fall should be inconsequential for a well built anchor.  

Greg Dwrote:

I love when people say "you don't sound like you know what you're talking about" and then don't know what they are talking about.  A redirect does nearly double the force on an anchor, in multi pitch and top rope (with the exception of friction reducing it to more like 1.7 x).  But doubling the force from a top rope fall should be inconsequential for a well built anchor.  

There's a special case where the belayer is totally hanging on the anchor. In that (less common) situation, the redirected belay does not increase the load on the anchor. Well, it does in a way, since it's already got the belayer on it. But the guide mode belayer will see the same high (2 person) load.

Greg Dwrote:

I love when people say "you don't sound like you know what you're talking about" and then don't know what they are talking about.  A redirect does nearly double the force on an anchor, in multi pitch and top rope (with the exception of friction reducing it to more like 1.7 x).  But doubling the force from a top rope fall should be inconsequential for a well built anchor.  

Now that I think more about it I guess you’re right the redirect acts as an upside down pulley on the anchor (plus there are other factors at play) However a redirect to the waist is a dynamic belay. The belayers body will move and lessen peak forces while the guide mode belay is static leading to higher peak forces. It would be interesting to see a test of this to see which creates higher forces.

Yes inconsequential for a well built anchor. For a sketchy anchor, which I have never needed, the best bet is to belay off your waist, with no redirect, with a rope tether to the anchor, belayer uses legs to absorb the fall, and follower is kept with no slack in the rope.

Gunkiemikewrote:

There's a special case where the belayer is totally hanging on the anchor. In that (less common) situation, the redirected belay does not increase the load on the anchor. 

In a redirect, the belayer most apply equal and opposite force to arrest the follower.  So, it really doesn't matter what configuration the belayer is attached.  The redirect point will see nearly twice the force of the follower even when the belayer is hanging on the anchor.  This will still have nearly the same total net load on the anchor.

Well, it does in a way, since it's already got the belayer on it. But the guide mode belayer will see the same high (2 person) load.

Yes, it does.  

The total load will be nearly the same in guide mode vs a redirect, if the belayer is hanging on the anchor.  There is a scenario where the load is reduced in comparison.  If the belayer is standing on a ledge, no weight on the anchor, the a guide mode belay will  impart nearly half the force compared to a redirect.  

Again, if a 2 person load on the anchor is an issue, your anchor is junk.

Gloweringwrote: You say you’re a multipitch noob and then you ask about GUIDE mode, what do you expect?  RGold was right in another thread where he said as soon as he saw guide mode devices he cringed (paraphrasing) because they would be misused. I love the option of guide mode but I didn’t use it until I had years of experience, and I only use it for convenience at appropriate times. It never streamlines a setup (except belaying two seconds) If you have to ask about guide mode you probably shouldn’t be using it.

Your statement doesn’t make a whole lot of sense. A redirect off the anchor uses a locker at the power point and a locker and belay device at your waist. It is very much like a top rope belay. Guide mode uses the same equipment (2 lockers and a belay device). If an anchor is setup well for guide mode (PowerPoint around face height) it’s also perfect for a redirect. With guide mode you’ll need more gear on hand if you need to lower. It’s MORE complicated. A redirect does not cause a two to one force on the anchor it only redirects the rope (for two to one the rope needs to travel twice as far, for example if the rope goes down to the follower thru a pulley and back up that’s a two to one, you have to pull in 2 feet of rope to raise the follower 1 foot). You don’t sound like you know what you’re talking about. That’s why he said get some instruction. 

Might want to tell it to the AMGA youtu.be/wor_idcjAic

Chris Lohwrote:

Multi pitching in general is something that should be taken slowly. Having a beginner learn how to use a grigri in guide mode along with relevant rescue methods is just as safe.

i never knew grigris had a guide mode ;)

muneutrinowrote:

Might want to tell it to the AMGA youtu.be/wor_idcjAic

Tell what?