12mm or 1/2" SS Wedge bolts in soft rock?

Does anyone have information on how a larger wedge bolt like a 12mm or 1/2" performs in softer desert sandstone? I see these on a lot of routes in Red Rocks and have wondered how the added diameter of the wedge affects the holding power in soft rock. How would a longer 1/2" SS wedge bolt compare to a 3/8 SS sleeve bolt in the same sandstone? Has this been tested much?

john collis wrote: Does anyone have information on how a larger wedge bolt like a 12mm or 1/2" performs in softer desert sandstone? I see these on a lot of routes in Red Rocks and have wondered how the added diameter of the wedge affects the holding power in soft rock. How would a longer 1/2" SS wedge bolt compare to a 3/8 SS sleeve bolt in the same sandstone? Has this been tested much?

Reach out to the Bolt Buster guys (Ryan and Bobby)  They have some data on what you're asking.  I made a contribution to their work and have access to the data.  Basic overview is longer is better, shear is great, tension things will cone if too short.  1/2" is better because you have more surface area at the cone/clip interface but longer is better too as you avoid coning issues.  This jives with other info Jim has on his website and elsewhere.  Not as cost effective or strong as a glue but I could see using 1/2x4.5" or 1/2x5.5" for certain needs.    

Sleeve boots are much better than wedge bolts for sandstone. You should never use a wedge bolt in soft sandstone. SS Powers Bolt+ are what you're looking for. Make sure the stud of the bolt is at least 3/8th. They've redesigned some of their 1/2" bolts with 1/4" studs, and you want to avoid those.

You can watch a lot of things come out of soft rock here!

On our website is The Bolting Bible in PDF form.  It is free and in the Book of Numbers has a link to our entire spreadsheet.  You can see the sandstone tests we did in there.  
www.HowNOTtoHighline.com

Pretty sure Jim Titt is on record saying there is nothing wrong with wedge bolts in soft rock when an appropriately thick (1/2" or more) and long (5 1/2" or more) bolt is used.

Paging Ser Titt...

ps Also this may be a case where a particularly round hole (made using 4 cutter style bits) is desireable.

Soft rock is a vague concept.

Jim Titt wrote: Soft rock is a vague concept.

It's a relative distinction

Ma Ja wrote: Sleeve boots are much better than wedge bolts for sandstone. You should never use a wedge bolt in soft sandstone. SS Powers Bolt+ are what you're looking for. Make sure the stud of the bolt is at least 3/8th. They've redesigned some of their 1/2" bolts with 1/4" studs, and you want to avoid those.

I thought it was the 3/8 power bolt+ that went 1/4 down from the 5/16 on the non+ are there really any 1/2" ones with such a small bolt?

also I had read that the wider end on the cone of the power bolts can damage a hole in really soft sand stone when it is hammered in as the cone is slightly oversized and designed to deform as it is driven in (I think that's what makes these vibration resistant) Then the now oversized hole is makes for weaker pull out or lets the hole wallow out under load cycling faster.  I am really talking about really soft sandstone like MOAB, not so much red rocks I think.  Also important to note that I have not bolted in sandstone this is just what I read so i'll defer to those with experience.

oh and FIXE sells those double cone wedge bolts what about those?

Zacks wrote:

I thought it was the 3/8 power bolt+ that went 1/4 down from the 5/16 on the non+ are there really any 1/2" ones with such a small bolt?

also I had read that the wider end on the cone of the power bolts can damage a hole in really soft sand stone when it is hammered in as the cone is slightly oversized and designed to deform as it is driven in (I think that's what makes these vibration resistant) Then the now oversized hole is makes for weaker pull out or lets the hole wallow out under load cycling faster.  I am really talking about really soft sandstone like MOAB, not so much red rocks I think.  Also important to note that I have not bolted in sandstone this is just what I read so i'll defer to those with experience.

oh and FIXE sells those double cone wedge bolts what about those?

I've been told NEVER to use wedge bolts in anything other than hard rock. If you're in Red Rock, you really shouldnt be considering anything but glue ins. But, if he is set on bolt ins, he should try to do it right. It's possible that there is not a right bolt in for where he's at, but that's his decision to make.

Bro, if you are feeling like the drill is not having to do much to punch a 1/2" hole, then a bolt in is bad business. If you have to wait for the drill to cut becasue you have consistently hard rock, then ok. If you're pouring sand out, you need long glues. Hit up Team Tough, twist bolts. Dave will have you taken care of. And their shipping is very reasonable.

And I've only heard through the grapevine that the standard 1/2" Power Bolt+ was reduced from a 3/8th stud down to a 1/4". Maybe it's 5/16th, but either way they are not rated high enough anymore for leading climbing falls. Fixe specifically wont sell them anymore and are suggesting making the jump to SS only. I believe those same bolts in SS were left alone. Do your own research, I just use glueins now so dont listen to me.

Ma Ja wrote: And I've only heard through the grapevine that the standard 1/2" Power Bolt+ was reduced from a 3/8th stud down to a 1/4". Maybe it's 5/16th, .

The 1\2" PB+ have 3\8 bolts inside.

The 3\8" PB+ have 1\4 bolts inside! They old ones used to have 5\16.
This is only for the zinc plated carbon steel bolts.

rocknice2 wrote:

The 1\2" PB+ have 3\8 bolts inside.

The 3\8" PB+ have 1\4 bolts inside! They old ones used to have 5\16.
This is only for the zinc plated carbon steel bolts.

The 1/2" has changed for sure, that's why Fixe wont sell them anymore.

Only the 3/8 changed.  The power bolt plus in 1/2" remains a 3/8 internal bolt.  They're still $$ and still PS.

Ma Ja wrote:

The 1/2" has changed for sure, that's why Fixe wont sell them anymore.

You need to lay off the grapes for a while. ;-)

Fixe sells the 3/8" plated Power-Bolt+, despite repeated attempts by various folks (including the ASCA) to get them to stop. Climbtech is more responsible and only sells the 1/2" version. BUT none of the Power-Bolt+ bolts are stainless.

Ideally neither of them would sell any non-stainless bolts at all.

On the original question, wedge bolts are generally a bad idea for soft rock - the sleeve doesn't bite and has minimal holding power. If you use long ones and the sleeve grabs immediately and you can torque them to recommended torque, they are probably fine. But when you get to really soft rock, it's very common to get cone spinners with the Power-Bolt aka 5-piece, and presumably also the Power-Bolt+ (the end caps do seem burlier and might keep sand out a bit better). One alternative that is not that strong overall, but does not suffer from cone spinners, is the Lok-Bolt design (similar ones sold by lots of companies). In the 1/2" x 4" or larger sizes, these bolts are generally good enough especially for top anchors. You can also use the 5/8" versions with 1/2" hole hangers. The ASCA sometimes provides a few of these to rebolters where 5-piece have issues but there's no practical way to use glue-ins (desert tower tops, etc), but we've pushed to move to long glue-ins.

Long glue-ins (sometimes REALLY long) are the best option for really soft rock.

rocknice2 wrote:

You need to lay off the grapes for a while. ;-)

You're right. I'll be distancing myself from the ones I heard it from, socially.

Greg Barnes wrote: 
Long glue-ins (sometimes REALLY long) are the best option for really soft rock.

Just how long of a glue-in are you talking? Bolt Products and Raumer both sell their 150mm bolts, but is there a commercially available option that's even longer? If there's an even longer bolt available, I might be interested in getting some for anchor replacement in the volcanic rubble of Hyalite Canyon.

Matt Z wrote:

Just how long of a glue-in are you talking? Team-Tough and Raumer both sell their 150mm bolts, but is there a commercially available option that's even longer? If there's an even longer bolt available, I might be interested in getting some for anchor replacement in the volcanic rubble of Hyalite Canyon.

Team Tough will make any size you want if you email them.

Matt Z wrote:

Just how long of a glue-in are you talking? Bolt Products and Raumer both sell their 150mm bolts, but is there a commercially available option that's even longer? If there's an even longer bolt available, I might be interested in getting some for anchor replacement in the volcanic rubble of Hyalite Canyon.

The 8mm twisted leg bolts 200mm are reasonably popular and 300mm not unusual. 12mm rod single-leg the 200mm are the usual choice, never made 300's in those but made one 2000mm just for fun once!

Greg Barnes wrote: On the original question, wedge bolts are generally a bad idea for soft rock - the sleeve doesn't bite and has minimal holding power. If you use long ones and the sleeve grabs immediately and you can torque them to recommended torque, they are probably fine.

True statement here. Wedge bolts are certainly not ideal, but ½" x 5½" actually grab really nice. I suppose this is because the wedge is huge (compared to, say, a ⅜" x 3" wedge bolt that one might use in granite) and looks like a mini sleeve.

But when you get to really soft rock, it's very common to get cone spinners with the Power-Bolt aka 5-piece, and presumably also the Power-Bolt+ (the end caps do seem burlier and might keep sand out a bit better).

I will say from experience (100+ first ascents on desert sandstone) that your presumption is incorrect; the Powerbolt+ performs infinitely better than the old Powerbolt aka 5-piece. The new Powerbolt+ taps in easy and bites down consistently. Cone spinners are extremely rare. The old Powerbolt must be smashed in (often blowing out the edge of the hole slightly) and cone spinners are infuriatingly common. The difference between the two is monumental.

Long glue-ins (sometimes REALLY long) are the best option for really soft rock.

Worth noting: not an option for ground-up bolting.

Matt Z wrote:

Just how long of a glue-in are you talking? Bolt Products and Raumer both sell their 150mm bolts, but is there a commercially available option that's even longer? If there's an even longer bolt available, I might be interested in getting some for anchor replacement in the volcanic rubble of Hyalite Canyon.

You can go super long using stainless all thread rod as a glue-in. They sell it in  3' sticks that you can cut in half so that you have two factory cuts that can go outside the hole. Just need to find equivalent grade stainless hangers, nuts, and washers.