Current state of knowledge regarding grigri effectiveness in preventing accidents?

Jim Titt wrote:

If you read all the studies from the DAV, ÖAV, SAC and NBKV  you'll find all these issues are well covered. At the end of the day it's only adequate training and experience that matters.

^^^this^^^

Perhaps a bit of hyperbole. If the above was the absolute truth, we’d all be using sticht plates, which could be had for about $3.00 or munters which are free, and are much lighter. 

Ma Ja wrote:

 If I saw a munter being used by someone today, I'd give them my spare ATC.

He's got two belay devices - negative 30 points.

Lena chita wrote:

Yes, but they would be harder to collect. To count every fall/belay device used you can have just a few observers per gym. To identify falls held despite believers mistake (e.g. the belayer let go of the hand, the gri-gri still locked) you would need a close one-on-one observation, possibly with a video to endorse in slo-mo. Now we are going into not realistic...

I think you can use anecdotal data from the climbers that solo with a GriGri. How many have decked or gone to the backup knot? How many have been caught as expected?

PWZ wrote:

He's got two belay devices - negative 30 points.

I found one in the bushes under Big Bad Wolf. Someone else with dropsies -30

And yeah, at the Red, sometimes you have to rapp becasue the anchors have spaced rapp rings.

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

Tom Randall had the belay biner on his gri-gri explode when it was crossloaded during a whipper.

This wouldn't have happened if he self-belayed with an ATC like a real climber

 ATC: 1 Gri-gri: 0

I call that GriGri: 1 ATC: 0

The GriGri locked onto the rope, no question about it.
The biner failed!

I wish people would stop worrying about what other people do

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

I wish there was a sarcasm font

In this forum, the regular font IS the sarcasm font.

We need a randomized controlled trial. Get a big group of climbers, split them up randomly into groups. Have one group use ATC's and another other use GriGris. Have a control group use GriGris with the cam disabled (but can still stop a fall if the brake strand is held). Oh and all belayers should be blindfolded so they can't tell which device they are using.

Marco Velo wrote: Here is a study that might be relevant. https://www.bergundsteigen.at/file.php/archiv/2017/1/100-106%28kletterhallenstudie%202015-teil2%29.pdf

It is in German, however.

See hypothesis 2 regarding the belay device.
 If have time later today I’ll translate/ summarize the findings. In short, they find that the hypothesis that an unexpected fall can be better held with an assisted belay device must be abandoned (p. 105).

I eventually found that Google translate can handle PDFs, though it is a pretty mangled translation. That figure 7, what's the difference between fall 1, 2 and 3? [grigri being the lowest in 1, tube in 3]

Jim Titt wrote:

If you read all the studies from the DAV, ÖAV, SAC and NBKV  you'll find all these issues are well covered. At the end of the day it's only adequate training and experience that matters.

German, Austrian, Swiss, Norwegian. I had only ever heard of the DAV before, but even then only rarely. It's interesting the studying of safety in climbing seems more sort after in Europe, and the American institutions haven't been publishing much of note here.

That does create the obstacle of language for me, which is why I haven't addressed your post. I haven't yet made a serious effort to dig into these leads, will see where I get to with that.

That's Holland not Norway.

The OP was about safety and, to me, this means preventing injury.
Many belay methods are safe if done correctly and in appropriate circumstances regarding eg rope diameter, nature of climb etc. It is incorrect use that is dangerous (as frequently stated).
Evidence about relative safety of belay devices should ideally relate to actual injuries due to belaying, not just errors potentially causing injury. Obviously experimental evidence is unavailable. Nobody has quoted any published accident data giving a Tube user: Assisted Braking Device user ratio; without this it is impossible to say which belay devices are more associated with accidents.
The climbing walls that have initiated an "only ABD" policy might have done so for a variety of reasons eg to satisfy insurers and minimize possible bad publicity and litigation; because staff guess that a disproportionate number of injuries occur using tubes etc. Hopefully some of these reasons were based on recorded evidence, but possibly some were just perceptions. I'm not sure there have been any declared gym staff or owners commenting in this thread.
However as a start surely some walls must have records that show a rise or fall in injuries due to belaying after banning tube devices. The records could be examined more closely to relate to various factors, like number of climbers before and after the ban, to give an evidence based view on whether banning tubes altered accident rate indoors. That's IF walls are prepared to have their data scrutinized.

The data regarding the relative use of the various types of belay device and the relative accident rate is published by the DAV.

Sorry I didn't get to this: had to work (and, well, ice climb on the weekend)

From the title: “Figure 7 shows the difference in holding (distance) between different belay devices.” The data commentary reads: “high values indicate poorly held fall (possible values between 1-6). Clearly visible in figure: by the first fall, the Grigri isolates the fall better than the other devices--[however] a clear safety advantage of one device over the others in all three unexpected/unanticipated falls is not supported by the data.”

 The study involved observation of three unanticipated falls and measured the distance of the fall. In the first fall the Grigri did a little better; in subsequent 2 falls no meaningful advantage. In discussing the results (Ergebnisse): “only by the first fall was there statistically significant difference between devices and really only between tube and Grigri. The hypothesis that one can better hold a fall with an assisted belay device must be abandoned.  From the utilization of a specific device alone, one cannot conclude that this person would handle a demanding situation better or worse. Rather, it has to be concluded that demanding falls can be controlled with any device: that the device does not protect the belayer from poorly handling a fall.”

Ay.  So, true story:  I bought myself a used grigri abiout 5 min ago.  Sitting in a coffee shop where I met up with seller, checking my email.

Yall win. :D

We will see how that goes.  I've been climbing 25 years with tube devices, we'll see if this season is any different.

But here's the question: what is the actionable outcome of this purchase?

If I give my grigri to my dog to belay me, is that really making me safer?

If I allow folks that I typically wouldn't allow belay me to take care of keeping me safe just because I can hand them this grigri, does that in fact make me safer?

Personally, I think the answer is no.  The only appriciable outcome is that a) I will be more patient with my buddies when they are hangdoggin and b) I'll hae an easier time next time I lower someone into an ice climb in the ouray ice park.

Cause there's no world in which I am gonna chose who I let belay me based in part or whole on the method that someone is using to belay me.

John Reeve wrote: Personally, I think the answer is no.  The only appriciable outcome is that a) I will be more patient with my buddies when they are hangdoggin and b) I'll hae an easier time next time I lower someone into an ice climb in the ouray ice park.

Cause there's no world in which I am gonna chose who I let belay me based in part or whole on the method that someone is using to belay me.

John, the GriGri does not play well with ice.  Not that an icy rope will slip(it may, I don't know), it is just that I have experienced the camming mechanism being frozen in place and not working.  It led to some panic...

Buck Rio wrote:

John, the GriGri does not play well with ice.  Not that an icy rope will slip(it may, I don't know), it is just that I have experienced the camming mechanism being frozen in place and not working.  It led to some panic...

Yeah, I am somewhat aware of that issue, but it's a good reminder.  

For this use-case, it's all "lowering off the top" at a park, so usually the ropes haven't been laying around getting iced up in the bottom of a draw... but it's not outside the realm of possibilty.  I'm planning on using my ATC for other situations on ice.

Horses for courses and all.

The leader must not fall.

So none of this matters.

But here's the question: what is the actionable outcome of this purchase?