Scary anchor thread

The american death triangle backed up with a daisy chain. Not trying to rip on the person just trying to create awareness I guess. This was taken at the ouray ice park a few days ago. 

As a community, we should burn the owner of that anchor at the stake as an example. 

That kinda looks like a PAS not a daisy chain. If it is, each loop is rated to 22kn if memory serves. Might not be AS janky as it first appears. 

Two PAS devices are bomber, those aren’t daisies.   I’d rap on it all day long. 

That's not really an American Death triangle. Not sure what it is exactly, other than an over "engineered" mess. It does, however, look safe enough to me though.

The Death Triangle (which was in widespread use when I started climbing) is when the webbing is threaded through both hangers in a loop. It's the "master point" at the bottom that completes the triangle and magnifies the force. The setup above won't magnify the forces in the same way.

Can't exactly make out what's happening but if there's no knots in that sling it's going to have the same force multiplication as an ADT. But that increase in force isn't enough for me to care.

I don't like it because it looks messy (that left bolt), there's more going on than is needed.

Like everyone else, would be happy to rap off it if I looked at it in person.

Kevin Mokracek wrote: Two PAS devices are bomber, those aren’t daisies.   I’d rap on it all day long. 

Agreed ... probably after removing the black and white dyneema sling that forms the triangle.

And the whole thing is on BOLTS. Even a bona fide ADT is ok on beefy bolts.

Maybe this is indeed a scary thread (about anchors); it's just not a thread about scary anchors.

Gunkiemike wrote:...Even a bona fide ADT is ok on beefy bolts.

Are you saying it's OK to load up a pair of bolts with ${miles_from_failure} kN with an american death triangle, instead of ${slightly_more_miles_from_failure} kN with an american freedom V?

I sir find that hard to believe, death is always bad! Not sometimes bad. Why would they name it the american death triangle if it wasn't always death?

r m wrote: american freedom V

I needed this today. Thanks.

r m wrote: Are you saying it's OK to load up a pair of bolts with ${miles_from_failure} kN with an american death triangle, instead of ${slightly_more_miles_from_failure} kN with an american freedom V?

I sir find that hard to believe, death is always bad! Not sometimes bad. Why would they name it the american death triangle if it wasn't always death?

:)

Let's not forget the euro DEATH knot.  

Another topic for the pet peeves thread.

Sure looks like the rope is only going through one of the “masterpoint” biners.   A complete Hack rigging job, but not overtly unsafe in any way. 

Mark Pilate wrote: Sure looks like the rope is only going through one of the “masterpoint” biners.   A complete Hack rigging job, but not overtly unsafe in any way. 

Nah - it snags both lockers. Just look at the spread between the strands going down below.

Zooming in on a big screen and donning your reading glasses will help too.   

Bill Lawry wrote:

Nah - it snags both lockers. Just look at the spread between the strands going down below...

Now, Bill.  Fess up.  Is this really YOUR setup?? Haha 

I believe you, but I did zoom in and it looked like the rope crosses over the spine of the orange biner missing it.   To be clipped,  It must then dive down and cross under the crook.   Nice.

Alan Coon wrote:

The american death triangle backed up with a daisy chain. Not trying to rip on the person just trying to create awareness I guess. This was taken at the ouray ice park a few days ago. 

Dumb but not scary, maybe scary dumb.

The black and white sling does create an ADT. That being said, if we are to approximate the effective vector angle to be 120° instead of 60°, a wild top rope load of 600 pounds would impart 600 pounds to each bolt versus 400 to each if there is some load sharing. That’s kind of like a midget jumping on the back of a Clydesdale. Wait, can we still say midget?

Putting the midget question aside, aren’t any of you into optimization for optimization’s sake?  

Actually, removing the sling also adheres to the much vaunted KISS commandment 

But how could they miss an opportunity to further over engineer this set up? There are 2 bolts not even in play!

Pfft, the OP needs to get out more. When I read the thread title I was thinking about rapping from scrubby 2" tree or a single #3 stopper wedged in a flake or flexing piton or ice bollard. Of which I have done all and some others.

While nobody was ever in any danger with that rig, it should be pointed out for armchair theoretical analysis, that it certainly does appear to effectively be an ADT contrary to what some have said.  The PAS’s do not appear to hold the load, but are “backup”.   While there are friction losses due to the twisted rigging, the sling puts a magnified load on the anchor points as in ADT.  If a bolt or screw were to ever fail, the PAS’s wouldn’t do anything.  

Mark Pilate wrote:...If a bolt or screw were to ever fail, the PAS’s wouldn’t do anything.  

Would limit extension wouldn't they as all the load moved onto 1 PAS and it's bolt?