Beal Opera + Birdie for simuling?

Looking at getting a pair of Opera 8.5 mms to use as half ropes for some alpine climbs over the summer.
I'd still like to be able to simul some of the easier pitches though, so thinking about pairing it with a Birdie and using a single rope for this, then breaking out the second rope and a Giga Jul for the actual climbing parts.

Has anyone used a Birdie (or any other camming device for that matter) with an 8.5 mm rope, and would you advise using it for simuling or is the brake a bit compromised at that diameter?

The newest gri gris are rated for 8.5. Not sure about the birdie.

I've done hanging rappels on both 7.5 and 6mm (just normal nylon, not one of those fancy RAD lines or the like) with a grigri. Slips slowly on the latter but nothing terrible, and the former locked solidly. 8.5 is still within the recommended range for the Birdie, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

Two single ropes and two belay devices sounds pretty heavy, though

Max Hernandez wrote: The newest gri gris are rated for 8.5. Not sure about the birdie.

They're rated 8.5-11.0, with the caveat that they're "optimized for 8.9-10.5"

The Birdie is just rated for 8.5-10.5.

Anson __ wrote: I've done hanging rappels on both 7.5 and 6mm (just normal nylon, not one of those fancy RAD lines or the like) with a grigri. Slips slowly on the latter but nothing terrible, and the former locked solidly. 8.5 is still within the recommended range for the Birdie, I wouldn't worry about it at all.

Two single ropes and two belay devices sounds pretty heavy, though

The Opera is light AF, kinda scary to use as a single on rock honestly. So I think it would be entirely reasonable to bring two of them instead of one and a rap line

I am curious about the combination of lightweight ropes, and carrying two belay devices. 

Anson __ wrote:Two single ropes and two belay devices sounds pretty heavy, though

It'd be three devices for two people, and a pair of triple rated ropes. It's the lightest system I can think of to have two ropes for the climb/in case of bailing, while also being able to simul easily on a single rated rope.

beal birdie, beal opera. they designed the birdie to work with the opera. i have both and would be fine with that set up.

actually, the biggest difference is i bought two operas to use as halves, realize they suck for that, and bought dedicated halves. operas are just too thick. i have simuled with an opera and a megajul. i'd be happy with a gigajul which i use now.

Chris Blatchley wrote:actually, the biggest difference is i bought two operas to use as halves, realize they suck for that, and bought dedicated halves. operas are just too thick.

What half ropes would you recommend then?

Ryan Mac wrote:

It'd be three devices for two people, and a pair of triple rated ropes. It's the lightest system I can think of to have two ropes for the climb/in case of bailing, while also being able to simul easily on a single rated rope.

Fair enough. I'd just use half ropes and simul on a single strand of one of them. A single half is still good for a factor 2 fall, and the odds of falling that badly (or at all) on something I'm comfortable simulclimbing on are very small. 

If you're not comfortable with that and it's a team of three you could also simul with the leader on two strands and just do without the grigri/birdie. Most all the rope management when you're simuling anyways is the follower adjusting their speed

I like the Mammut twilight, but the Beal Gully gets great reviews as well and is about half a pound lighter for a 60m set

Rope depends entirely on objective.

Your system sounds device dependant to me-  why would you carry a Birdie in the alpine?  Heavy.

chris magness wrote: Rope depends entirely on objective.

Your system sounds device dependant to me-  why would you carry a Birdie in the alpine?  Heavy.

Objectives are in the Wind Rivers and maybe some stuff in the High Sierras, both during summer so no mixed/ice. Secondary objective is to not break the bank. It would be nice if whatever I end up with is still useful for something like wandering multipitch trad afterwards, but not necessarily a requirement.

The Birdie/Grigri is for the second while simuling, that's the system I'm familiar with. Could just put the second on a clove hitch or an alpine butterfly and regulate slack by speed of climbing, a camming device is a bit more flexible though and potentially safer. Not sure that saving <200 grams is important enough to outweigh that, but I am new to this side of climbing so appreciate the advice.

Ryan Mac wrote: What half ropes would you recommend then?

I got beal legends, but mostly because they were cheap and available.

As the follower, simuling with half ropes, you can tie in and then attach an atc above the knot. Lets you still switch to belaying quickly, and you can even pull slack and throw loops around your shoulder if necessary. Might not be super comfortable in the case of a fall, but the rope looped around your torso would still act as a brake hand just fine (esp with a gigajul)

Or you can just let a bit of slack hang occasionally

Why not each climber carry a reversino or similar device?

Ryan Mac wrote:

Objectives are in the Wind Rivers and maybe some stuff in the High Sierras, both during summer so no mixed/ice. Secondary objective is to not break the bank. It would be nice if whatever I end up with is still useful for something like wandering multipitch trad afterwards, but not necessarily a requirement.

The Birdie/Grigri is for the second while simuling, that's the system I'm familiar with. Could just put the second on a clove hitch or an alpine butterfly and regulate slack by speed of climbing, a camming device is a bit more flexible though and potentially safer. Not sure that saving <200 grams is important enough to outweigh that, but I am new to this side of climbing so appreciate the advice.

Easy alpine rock isn't wall climbing.  I'd be less than psyched to be simul climbing through loose or blocky exposed terrain with 200 feet of rope out and minimal protection.  If that were your intention, you could be safer not using a rope.

Use shorter sections of rope, learn how to manage it, learn how to use terrain features, and regulate slack with pace.  Understand that falling has consequence and don't fall.  You're not going to be carrying a triple rack and won't have much gear between you.  More than likely, you'll want to stop and belay cruxes from somdthing more than a stance- like an anchor.

Remember, techniques such as the hip belay are live and well in the mountains.  Ropework will keep you safe and fast, and is a better focus point that gadgetry.

Also, seems like a fatter rope and a pull cord/ thin rap line would work better for what you'd like to do.  Transitions take time, your system prescribes a lot of them.

chris magness wrote: Rope depends entirely on objective.

Your system sounds device dependant to me-  why would you carry a Birdie in the alpine?  Heavy.

I know this is tangential to the actual topic, but there's a lot of support from strong / accomplished climbers for the "alpine grigri".  I'm not making the claim whether or not the utility of doubles is better or worse than the single rope alpine grigri setup, I'm not qualified to have an opinion yet ;)

Eric Roe wrote:

I know this is tangential to the actual topic, but there's a lot of support from strong / accomplished climbers for the "alpine grigri".  I'm not making the claim whether or not the utility of doubles is better or worse than the single rope alpine grigri setup, I'm not qualified to have an opinion yet ;)

Yes, "strong / accomplished climbers."

Crawl before you can walk.  Basic alpine ropecraft trumps all and is quite suitable and simpler (read: safer) for most lay parties.

Also, the grigri should not be considered a hands-free device.  Many of Blake's tactics are risky as they depend on the grigri as a primary breaking device, not a backup.  Nowhere does his article mention a backup knot.  What happens when the grigri's cam is jammed and you're bringing coils in around your neck?  Or your rope is icy?  Or you drop your one ATC?  

revans90 wrote: I don’t know about the opera but have used the 8.1 or 8mm Beal  half ropes and my all time favorite rope is the 9.1 Joker. My friend who has climbed on the joker and the opera said the joker is a  better piece of mind while simul climbing. That said I think the opera would be ideal for most easier to moderate trad routes in the Sierra.

Since the birdi is made to work with the opera I bet this is your best device for the rope. 

Your idea for the second using a camming belay device while simuling is really efficient. Iv used it many time and its really handy as the second to have and for the leader to know the rope will always be close and a quick belay when needed. As the second you can move at your pace and find spots to stop an let some rope back out or offer a belay. That sort of device is defiantly worth the weight in the alpine to add to the bag of tricks. Sometimes we carry just one gri gri and one guide but most of the time bring two guides and one gri gri if there are raps.
Carrying two single rated ropes seems time consuming to switch between double and single rope tech. For what it’s worth I have limited double rope experience so if you have used double ropes and can make it work then it’ll work. 
What’s in your Sierra tick list?

Thanks for the advice. Not really a tick list yet, just saw a couple routes on and around Mt. Whitney that looked fun. I'm open to recommendations, not sure if I'll be able to make it that far West on this trip yet though.