Crowded Calico Crags Concern/Rant

J.Kruse wrote: Good relevant article:

https://www.climbing.com/places/when-legends-die-the-changing-face-of-hueco-tanks-state-park/

glad i had climbed there way before them shutting down 2 of the mountains. it was nice climbing there then, barely saw anyone through the day walking to and from climbs/areas.

Thanks to all of the thoughtful responses. My thoughts in return are as follows:

No to permits that limit climbing. Even with the popularity of climbing in RR I don't think this is necessary, because, as stated in my original post, there are literally hundreds of other crags in Calico hills. As crowded as Calico seems, the problem, ostensibly, is that too many people are climbing at the same few crags. (You know what's better than waiting in line for that 3.5 star 10b ten minutes from the parking lot? An entire crag of climbs to yourself twenty minutes from the parking lot!)

On a related note, I do think a survey of the number of people entering the loop road (access to the Calico pullouts for the uninitiated) for climbing would be a good start to putting some hard data to the problem. I think this would be easy enough for the loop road money/pass handlers to tally, but I could be wrong. (Yes you'll miss the Calico West side crags but there are solutions there too.) These data might be what's needed to convince the BLM officials for some signage. I love the idea of some LNT/crag directions signs (including less popular ones) to help locate more crags and reduce social trails.

Anyone know if the BLM collects any user group statistics in RRC? Andrew Yasso mentioned the difficulties with getting signage in place. I'm cautiously optimistic that it might be easier in Calico hills area since it's not wilderness. Are the major hurdles limited resources (person-power, money, time), or do they manifest as bureaucracy? (Yes, I'll gladly donate my time, money and bulging, sport-climber back muscles to the effort as I believe many others would too.)

Sacrificial crags, seriously? Look, I recognize that some crags will see more traffic and show that impact accordingly. However, I hope those of you are not suggesting to just "let them die" so to speak, and allow (or at least not disallow) them to be trashed. Several of the crags I mentioned are close to and/or visible from the road. I don't think that will send the message we want as climbers, and worse, could promote negative access in the future.

I think crag location and LNT signage (and maybe some concomitant education) is about all that can be done without implementing usage reduction measures like permits. I'm not ready to go there especially if this problem can be solved without going there! It'd be great to prevent the situation from the Hueco Tanks article linked up-thread from fully manifesting itself here before it's forced upon us.

A lot of the climbers swarming these areas are new and inexperienced, out of the gym. Or experienced in sport but have never been to red rocks or have only been a few times. Or limited time. If they have never been here at all, the first day is often easy to moderate sport at these popular walls to get used to the rock. Hard to really fault them for that.

Efforts are being made to add more routes and spread out the crowds in this way, however this also means more total routes, which means more popularity, more people. This is not some magic solution to crowds. It's just more options.

You can take these climbers under your wing and get them hooked on MP and trad. However this means, at least in the short term, even more swarming of the most popular trad MPs until they have grown enough to be able to handle the temporarily chossy obscure MPs and inspired enough to do FAs of their own.

There is no perfect solution, there is only failing with as much "grace" as YOU can muster to inspire in them.

Case in point:
I have friends coming from ATX soon. One has climbed for decades, but he is the mentor for the rest who have climbed about 2 years now. All single pitch sport. One of the main goals for this trip is to get them a little bit of MP experience, which means they will want to do, obviously, Big Bad Wolf. It's a short trip so it's hard to entice them into learning trad, though believe me, I'll be trying. Not surprisingly that would most likely mean Physical Graffiti, due to proximity and time consideration. The other days will probably be places like The Black Corridor, The Gallery. If one of my more experienced friends comes he and I, maybe plus one of the newer climbers in that group, may go do something longer in the canyons, but it's not likely with the trip being so short.
(Imagine situations similar to this applied to many of the groups coming to RR and there's your all too predictable cause, now what are you going to do about it personally? Put yourself in their shoes.)

Thankfully a few kind souls are increasing the sport options and bolted MP options, but it's not exactly a fast process, and if they do it wrong it kinda sucks. Expanding options in the canyons, the wilderness area, is not a simple thing, and is a slow process.

Edit: Also, regarding sacrificial crags, consider cannibal crag, every day after a rain there are parties on it and other easy access crags. It's been like this for years, basically the battle has been lost. Good on those few who go out the day after a rain and talk to those people. Mentorship. Too many people think they know what dry rock looks like. Doesn't help that Kentucky Pete tells people that the rock doesn't weaken when wet.

E IV wrote: A significant part of the crowding problem is the gym scene. Go to any gym on a tuesday night from 6-8 and see what the crowds are like...that atmosphere has become normalized for newer climbers making the transition to outdoor climbing. People think walking up to a crag with 20-30 people already there and waiting in line is just normal because that's what it's like in their gym, whereas 15-20 years ago, if my partner and I rolled up to an outdoor crag with more than 1-2 other parties, we'd probably move on to something less crowded. Waiting in line to climb is dumb. Going to a crag with 5-10 of your friends is also dumb and rude AF in my book. Gyms should somehow teach this. 

I agree with the observation that lots of newer climbers seem to travel in large packs; same with boulderers.  I don't know if it's dumb or rude if the person doesn't have any other frame of reference.  To them it probably seems normal and us parties of two probably seem like anti-social wierdos.  

Warning.  Boomer story:  my first time out to Red Rocks was shortly after Mike Tupper and others put up a lot of those routes at the First and Second pullouts.  We learned of them because of an article/guide published in Rock + Ice mag.  Hardly anyone out there.  Mike showed up and came over to us and told us how nice it was to see other folks at the crags.  Times change.  I like people and I don't mind sharing.  Unfortunately, there are now A LOT more people and far less easily accessed rock to go around and the wear and tear is showing.  

Kris, have you engaged the SNCC with your concerns? A sign plan certainly makes sense and might be something that could qualify as a categorical exclusion to NEPA. Think smaller, piecemeal projects vs. a more comprehesive EA. Maybe this has been tried before?

Been a few years, but last time in RR I couldn't help but think the place would be better managed as a national park.

scared to even ask but are the crowds any better mid-week? going next month...... and yikes.

Josh Glantz wrote: scared to even ask but are the crowds any better mid-week? going next month...... and yikes.

Crowds are definitely worse on the weekends. Maybe try checking out The Pier, The Fringe, Jane's Wall, The Stratocaster Area, or The Running Man wall. If you look, there are also a few random sport climbs scattered around other areas further down the loop. 

I am an old curmudgeon that has been climbing here for 30 years, and I miss the good old days, but the OP is blowing this problem up to be WAY more than it truly is.  RR is not that overrun by climbers.  

On weekends and when school (colleges) are out, the big name crags are swamped, but at other times it is never an issue.

We are in a bubble of climbing popularity right now.  It will slow just like every other fad.  It will never be the 90s again, but the “new” will wear off and 80% of new climbers will move on to other things.

I do not see a need to individually count climbers or require restrictions.  The crags are fine.  I think you need to go look at the crags and ask if there is really anything worth freaking out about.  As an example, the black corridor sees thousands of climbers a year, but go walk though it some early morning.  You will find it looks perfectly fine.  In over 30 years of extremely heavy use, it would look almost untouched if we removed the chalk and bolts.

Our impact is not that heavy.  This is not the issue we need to worry over.  

You are probably, actually, just upset about your own ability to enjoy your local crag in peace and quiet.  Well, for now, those days are few and far between.

Josh Glantz wrote: scared to even ask but are the crowds any better mid-week? going next month...... and yikes.

Get there at 6am year round and any wall is open.  Get there at noon expect people climbing on most easy walls.  We didn’t see anybody else yesterday until afternoon 

Sandy Crimp wrote: We are in a bubble of climbing popularity right now.  It will slow just like every other fad.  It will never be the 90s again, but the “new” will wear off and 80% of new climbers will move on to other things.

Recall that climbing is an Olympic event in a mere 5 months.

J.Kruse wrote: Institute a permit system and a daily user cap. Sounds terrible, you couldn't pay me to go climb at any of the Calico/First/Second pull out crags these days. 

It's really not THAT bad unless you are an under 5.9 climber who only climbs on the weekends. As long as you manage your expectations (you arent going to find solitude or a wilderness experience single pitch sport climbing 5 minutes from the road) you will have a good time. As far as trash I've hardly seen any around cliffsides even at the most popular crags. The trash comes from the hoardes of vegas tourists who hardly step off the pavement.

There is no doubt that Red Rock is getting more crowded. There are more climbers and the walls showing the results of the heavy impact.

However, an even larger concern is that Red Rock is also getting hammered by tourist and hiker traffic. It's now common for the loop road to close by noon or 1pm on weekend days and holidays that have nice weather. If the road is open, it's not uncommon for the line of vehicles waiting to get in to be a mile long from the toll booth with wait-times of a half hour or more.

The worst is when the BLM declares a free entrance day. The next one is this Monday, February 17, President's Day. If you don't get to the entrance before 10am, just forget it - the BLM determines that there are no more available parking spaces inside the loop and access is CLOSED at the entrance.

Yes, there are a lot of climbers, but our numbers are a tiny percentage of the overall problem of crowding at Red Rock. This is not to say that we don't need to change our behavior. We, as climbers, do need to set good examples for the public-at-large to follow. I'm just saying there are greater forces at play that also need to be addressed.

Every crag gets too crowded the day after you discover it.

" The crags are fine"

As said above.  It's inherently rude and selfish to talk negatively about other people just trying to enjoy the same sport as you.  Somehow you do it "better" or fulfill a higher purpose?  Imagine the horror:. People climbing in groups??  Socializing?? Finding stuff with short approaches?  Having a dog??   Lord Almighty it's the end of the world!

Russ Keane wrote: " The crags are fine"

As said above.  It's inherently rude and selfish to talk negatively about other people just trying to enjoy the same sport as you.  Somehow you do it "better" or fulfill a higher purpose?  Imagine the horror:. People climbing in groups??  Socializing?? Finding stuff with short approaches?  Having a dog??   Lord Almighty it's the end of the world!

The OP didn't say "Man, these people are having fun in groups and picking up trash and keeping their dogs on a leash while educating people about LNT."

He specifically spoke about how the crags are not being taken care of. Kind of a big difference.

B P wrote:

The OP didn't say "Man, these people are having fun in groups and picking up trash and keeping their dogs on a leash while educating people about LNT."

He specifically spoke about how the crags are not being taken care of. Kind of a big difference.

But his statement is just Pollyannaism and not based in fact.  The crags are not trashed.  They are just busy at peak times.  I spent 3 hours in the Black Corridor today (Sunday of a holiday weekend).  There was not a single piece of trash or anything of the like.  Also, there were only 6 people there until 10am.  

The sky is not falling.  We don’t need more rules and signs.  This is much ado about someone who misses his version of the good ole days.
Or he is just looking for the OK to use his drill to retrobolt.  

I'm speaking from the point of view of somebody who was born here (29 years old) and whose family has lived here since the 40's. First things first, Vegas isn't a wasteland, that guy is thinking of the strip, downtown, and maybe yucca mountain. I hate those places too.
Second, I have been hiking these parts most of my life but have only been climbing a short while. I get really bummed too when I see how much this city has grown and how over crowded the areas get on busy weekends, ultimately that's just the way life is, some humans suck and are probably in need of another plague or something.
But I think there are many valid points. The most important, I think, being to educate and lead by example.
- For the gym rats who have never spent much time outside, gyms need to emphasize a little more on local ethics and LNT principles. So should the media but good luck.
- If you see trash, pick it up, encourage others to, and call idiots out who deviate from the ethics (if you feel safe to do so). I picked up a ton of glass today and still enjoyed my hike.
- THERE IS A GREAT THING CALLED THE ACCESS FUND that focuses precisely on the issues mentioned in this thread
- Placing more protected or endangered wilderness signs isn't as easy as just making a sign and posting it, there's politics at play :( but joining things like the access fund helps in getting these things done. But at the same time, are we here to enjoy nature or to see a bunch of signs?
- Paying fees sucks, it also helps fund care to the area but spending money still sucks, let's try to avoid that.
- Hopefully it is just a trend due to media attention, hopefully the Olympics doesn't make it even more popular, but if it does maybe it will keep more people in the gyms and out of the crags. If you can't handle the crowds find a way to climb and hike on weekdays and in the summer or go explore and get some FA's elsewhere! You get bragging rights and the satisfaction!
- Maybe we keep less trafficked areas on the DL? And don't share sh** on social media.
- The Trad Vs Sport debate runs deep, it will never die. I don't think adding more bolts will help and will only draw in more people. Trad climbing is a good skill to teach and learn. Also, if one cared alot about keeping things clean one would make the effort to use colored chalk.

Im not even that old but I often find myself longing for the old days, but the sad truth is there's just too many people and too much technology. Unless some massive worldwide event changes that, it's up to us naturalists, hikers, climbers, and outdoor enthusiasts to educate and lead by example.

And keep in mind, Calico was once a private community and access was once limited to long drives, long hikes around, sneaking in, or knowing somebody. So it hasn't always been the "easy, short approach". Be grateful. Don't just climb, be a student of climbing, know the history, preserve it, and try to make new history good history.

As always the “The SNCC / BLM should have-more signage!”  crowd is so far removed from what the dynamics / issues of climbing in RedRock are that they shouldn’t even be commenting.

Nicholas Gillman wrote: As always the “The SNCC / BLM should have-more signage!”  crowd is so far removed from what the dynamics / issues of climbing in RedRock are that they shouldn’t even be commenting.

Yeah.
Red Rock needs more signs just like Yosemite does.