ATC Lowering technique - Is it legit?

Grandpa Dave wrote:

If they can't use an ATC correctly, "remedial training" is in order. The little extra friction there isn't useful if they don't know how use the gear in the first place.

Amen to that ^^^

I think some folks don't realize that just because the teeth are there, doesn't mean you have to use that side to belay from.  I've caught some pretty big falls from a 200 lb. guy with this:

When I wanted/needed more friction, I added a biner...btw, these things would get hella hot on a fast rappel. I have the scars to prove it.

Not advocating people go backwards in regards to technology, but learn to use all sorts of tested techniques before you start making shit up on your own.

Thread Summary: Bad solution in search of creating a problem. 

Robert Hall wrote:

Just remember if you "flip the device around" prior to lowering, the lead climber is OFF BELAY while you're "flipping".  This adds another potential cause of an accident, so I wouldn't do it; even if the lead climber is clipped into the anchors while "flipping". There's just so many accidents reported due to lack of communication that IMO it isn't worth it! 

Starting out that way from the start of the climb, if for instance the lead climber is much lighter (or your rapping with the ATC) might be OK, but isn't the way the ATC is designed to work. Learn how to regulate the lowering / rappelling, which means (sometimes) you even need to "feed" the rope through.  

Sorry I didn’t mean to switch between belay and lower. But for a lighter climber just use low friction*(Regular friction mode, my bad) mode the whole time. With a lighter climber on a fuzzy gym rope idk why you would need high friction mode.. obviously you have to be there to make that call, which I am not.

And it is the way they are designed. If you read the manual on the newer ATC versions, “backwards” is actually the normal way to use it and the teeth are only used for extra friction. Sorry for any confusion! :)

Cpn Dunsel wrote:

If people are going to re-invent the wheel they should keep the part that is round.

Lol, I’m going to start using that at work.

Hand the guy an old style ATC and be done with it. 

Yes, less friction.

No safety concerns.  More wear on the device and rope- but so what?

Isn't the greater concern whether or not the belay is attentive?  The brake hand is engaged?  You get a good catch and a smooth ride down?

There’s absolutely no reason to do that.  ATCs have plenty of friction in either orientation . Better solution if you feel you need more friction is simply to add an extra biner.

you hold the rope over the edge on a grigri like that because it is designed for that. An ATC is not designed for that, so you just look like a turd doing that on an ATC.  Get an assisted braking device if you need assistance braking / lowering; you're not alone, that is why myself and others get them. There are plenty of options that are not the price of a grigri if you don't want one of those for some reason. Or get the petzl freino 'biner to add friction on the ATC (or any other device).

Maidy and Jonathan - you guys misunderstand.  He was employing bad technique yes, but looking for Less friction, not more. 

I agree with Layne somewhat. I have several old ATCs. Does no one remember that these do effectively the same as what’s in the original photo. They have no teeth; they are oval with uniform edges all around. They would wear out and you get another. So if this guy using his ATC guide wants to lower over the edge like that, why not? Sure it may wear unevenly and need replacing, but to say it’s somehow wrong or shows lack of knowledge is a bit over board. It may not be ideal but I don’t see much of a problem.
I think they were taking advantage of high friction to belay the climber up, then cheating somewhat, to lower with reduced friction. I don’t know if that really suggests lack of knowledge as some here have claimed.

Mark Pilate wrote: Maidy and Jonathan - you guys misunderstand.  He was employing bad technique yes, but looking for Less friction, not more. 

oops you're right. my point about the grigri being designed for this orientation and the atc not still stands. 

Buck Rio wrote:

Amen to that ^^^

I think some folks don't realize that just because the teeth are there, doesn't mean you have to use that side to belay from.  I've caught some pretty big falls from a 200 lb. guy with this:

When I wanted/needed more friction, I added a biner...btw, these things would get hella hot on a fast rappel. I have the scars to prove it.

Not advocating people go backwards in regards to technology, but learn to use all sorts of tested techniques before you start making shit up on your own.

Beat me to it.  I brought my old stich plate to the local gym, but they wouldn't let me use it.  The worker had never seen one before.

Jonathon B wrote:.... Or get the petzl freino 'biner to add friction on the ATC (or any other device).

Yup, that works very well.

Alex Holmann wrote: Working at the gym tonight and had someone show me that they lowered with an ATC by curling the rope over the edge, like you would on a grigri.

by

The idea behind this was, you get the extra friction from the ATC's teeth while belaying, but less friction while lowering which is nice when your climber is very light.

So, is this legit? YGD?

It is simply not the way it was intended to be used.  It has the potential to create a very sharp edge fast. Bad technique all around. 

Alex Holmann wrote: Working at the gym tonight and had someone show me that they lowered with an ATC by curling the rope over the edge, like you would on a grigri.

The idea behind this was, you get the extra friction from the ATC's teeth while belaying, but less friction while lowering which is nice when your climber is very light.

So, is this legit? YGD?

Did you pull their belay card???

Yes he pulled it...then let it snap back on the little rubber band it was attached to.   This is quite the insult in gym circles.  Like a glove across the face. 

Mark Pilate wrote: Yes he pulled it...then let it snap back on the little rubber band it was attached to.   This is quite the insult in gym circles.  Like a glove across the face. 

So you must climb at VE.

I insisted that the staff give me three, so I don't have to swap them out based on what harness happens to be in my truck.

Its like walking backwards. It works, just awkward and looks stupid.   But aint nobody gonna die.