NEW Black diamond Z4

Maybe this is common knowledge and im about to get owned...but what are the main value adds of totems?  In my mind some cons are the cost, limited sizes, and heavier than other cams in the same size categories.  Are there other cons or do all of the pros about fits anywhere, never walks,and kid of acts like an offset simply outweigh anything you throw its way?

Queue the masturbatory totem comments.

You were about right.  Search totems in the forum and you'll begin your indoctrination...  

Tal Wanish wrote:

An improvement over the X4 for a cheaper price? Definitely something worth being excited about, but yeah - they're no replacement for totems.

What about for the 0, .1, and .2 sizes? I love my Totems but the black is small as Totems go for now (please Totem make sub black cams:).  My interest in the Z4s and the wave new micro cams is finding the best 0,.1,.2 sized cams out there.  

Tal Wanish wrote:

Definitely - I'll defer to my buddy here - he had a lot of experience with those microcams and was planning on filling out with the metolius cams. Brought the Z4 to work and he changed his mind in about 5 minutes. He loved the Z4 micros. They feel super good to me. I also prefer the "mushier" (very accurate term honestly) action over the easier actions. I haven't whipped on any, and hopefully won't for .a while, but I love the Z4 in the 0.1-0.5 sizes (don't have the 0 or 0.75 and have no plans to)

I’m looking at getting the 3-4 smallest sizes of them. Anything bigger and I have way too many options anyway.

Tal Wanish wrote:

An improvement over the X4 for a cheaper price?

Yeah... No big deal at all...

I know people are not the most impressed with aliens (poor customer service, quality, etc...), but I have had some good success with the revo and revo offsets serving as small cams in my rack.  In particular, the black and blue appear to have a much wider "usable" range - not talking min and max here and you can almost say that 2 aliens (black and blue) cover 3+ish dragonfly and Z4 sizes. 

It's a cam.

Bryan Gilmore wrote: It's a cam.

Totems are not just "a cam". They are superior, without question. When the patent runs out on the Direct Lobe Loading (or whatever they call it), every manufacturer will make their cams this way. It's simply works better.

Tal Wanish wrote:

I also prefer the "mushier" (very accurate term honestly) action over the easier actions.

How is “mushy” action different than “easy” action? I would think you’d have mushy/easy at one end of the spectrum and stiff/firm at the other end of the spectrum.

I think action has to do with two things: Spring tension (obviously) but also tolerances between lobes. Tighter tolerances = narrower head width but in my opinion creates problems in every other way: Once a cam gets worn or damaged or any gunk or dirt gets in there or temps get cold, those tight tolerances result in a sticky cam that may not work at all. Higher spring tension overcomes all these problems to some degree.

Incidentally this is yet another advantage of the C3’s - with their stiff, sealed pusher-spring design I’ve never had one become non-functional even when dirty, cold, and with manked lobes.

X4’s seem to get a bad rap but I like them. The way the smaller sizes have springs that are integrated (and protected) within the lobes creates lobes with more surface area and keeps the springs from getting gunked up. This is a great design. Notably the Z4’s go back to a more traditional spring configuration.

Ma Ja wrote:

Totems are not just "a cam". They are superior, without question. 

So, the Totem may be superior, but I also know that a Volvo is superior to a Kia yet the Kia still gets me to all the same places is cheaper and gets better fuel economy. I understand why people like Volvo's but at the end of the day it's just a car. The Totems, do have one significant disadvantage and that is their weight, I love specialized gear when it's needed, but most of the time standard cams work great.

All that said, I do have a few new Z4's and while they are lighter and less expensive than the cam they're replacing, I don't think they're worth any other accolades. Basically just a updated X4 albeit with negligible upgrades. Not much unlike the whole Hood wire thing B.D. tried to tell us was so amazing.

Bryan Gilmore wrote:

I understand why people like Volvo's but at the end of the day it's just a car. 

It's just a car when it gets you from point A to point B. It's not just a car when your life depends on it during a crash. A cam, on the other hand, has no intrinsic value other than to protect you. Not saying that makes a Totem a better choice for everyone/all the time.

Bryan Gilmore wrote:

So, the Totem may be superior, but I also know that a Volvo is superior to a Kia yet the Kia still gets me to all the same places is cheaper and gets better fuel economy. I understand why people like Volvo's but at the end of the day it's just a car. The Totems, do have one significant disadvantage and that is their weight, I love specialized gear when it's needed, but most of the time standard cams work great.

All that said, I do have a few new Z4's and while they are lighter and less expensive than the cam they're replacing, I don't think they're worth any other accolades. Basically just a updated X4 albeit with negligible upgrades. Not much unlike the whole Hood wire thing B.D. tried to tell us was so amazing.

That's a stretch of an anology. Itd be more like saying that Volvo's are better than Kia's becasue only Volvo's will stay in place when you put the car in park in a parking space that only fits Volvo's. Next time I find a Totem only "parking space" where no other cam will hold or fit, I'm going to take a video and post it. I have C4's and Dragon ii's, and the order of holding power is very obviously Totem>Dragon ii>C4. C4's are perfectly fine if you have a good placement, but end up in a spot with nothing but weirdness, and you'll be happy to have a Totem. I remember reading in a guide to "save a 4 for the last placement and then run it out to the chains" becasue there was supposedly no more placements. I found two bomber totem placements that I would have been comfortable falling on after that last 4. 

I "down aid" for developing with glue-ins on a regular basis and I wouldnt be able to do what I do without Totems, unless i was drilling a bunch of temporary holes to get me down, which i wouldnt want to do.

Josh Janes wrote: Incidentally this is yet another advantage of the C3’s - with their stiff, sealed pusher-spring design I’ve never had one become non-functional even when dirty, cold, and with manked lobes.
X4’s seem to get a bad rap but I like them. The way the smaller sizes have springs that are integrated (and protected) within the lobes creates lobes with more surface area and keeps the springs from getting gunked up. This is a great design. Notably the Z4’s go back to a more traditional spring configuration.

I have a green C3 that has a lobe that doesn't move freely, though this mostly has to do with an indentation right at the trigger wire part of the lobe (the deformation binding the solid wire). Not sure at that size there exists a better solution; the normal totem & basics have stranded wire that alleviates this issue.

IMO, internal spring design of the aliens/totems/smaller X4s is a pretty big stability advantage against twisting (for when only 2 lobes are loaded) as there is no gap between each lobe pair. Going w/o it makes Z4 functionally not that much different than the DMM, Metolius, WC offerings.

Tldr: not interested in Z4 at all...

reboot wrote:

I have a green C3 that has a lobe that doesn't move freely, though this mostly has to do with an indentation right at the trigger wire part of the lobe (the deformation binding the solid wire). Not sure at that size there exists a better solution; the normal totem & basics have stranded wire that alleviates this issue.

IMO, internal spring design of the aliens/totems/smaller X4s is a pretty big stability advantage against twisting (for when only 2 lobes are loaded) as there is no gap between each lobe pair. Going w/o it makes Z4 functionally not that much different than the DMM, Metolius, WC offerings.

Tldr: not interested in Z4 at all...

https://youtu.be/DwhR3TlFkWI

Kinda demonstrates what you're referring too. With the whole internal spring jazz. 

Bryan Gilmore wrote:

So, the Totem may be superior, but I also know that a Volvo is superior to a Kia yet the Kia still gets me to all the same places is cheaper and gets better fuel economy. I understand why people like Volvo's but at the end of the day it's just a car. The Totems, do have one significant disadvantage and that is their weight, I love specialized gear when it's needed, but most of the time standard cams work great.

All that said, I do have a few new Z4's and while they are lighter and less expensive than the cam they're replacing, I don't think they're worth any other accolades. Basically just a updated X4 albeit with negligible upgrades. Not much unlike the whole Hood wire thing B.D. tried to tell us was so amazing.

BD's Hoodwire technology IS great! It's a clever way of achieving a snag-free nose at a fraction of the cost!

I picked up a couple Z4s. I like them so far.

The .4 caught a fall the first day out. Go figure, I haven’t taken a fall in months and then I go lob off onto my new cam. Oh well, that’s ya buy them for, eh? 
They’re light. Action feels good in hand, and they place easy. And the price seems right. The .2 trigger is noticeably more stiff than then the .4, seems normal though. 
I also use some Aliens, but I like the BD cams for a lot of placements. And I have some totems that I never use :-P

Zack Clarke wrote: Just played with some Z4’s at nomad in Joshua Tree. They do not do what they were advertised to do... ie make the cam more rigid when completely retracted and then more flexible once opened up a bit. The black plastic piece around the shaft does not do that, except protect the cables... Does anyone else have this experience?

Does not make a difference front to back at all. It does side to side though. 

Thoughts on the Z4 0 vs the C3 000?

Would the Z4 be a noticeable upgrade?

Khoi wrote:

BD's Hoodwire technology IS great! It's a clever way of achieving a snag-free nose at a fraction of the cost!

I have about a dozen that I gifted to someone...it is a novel idea that isn't as great as it seems. The "hood" part makes the nose so fat they won't fit through the eye of some pins (angle's in particular).  The hooded part also collects ice. 

I much prefer DMM, CAMP and WC's solution to this "problem".  Frankly, for most of my applications, the notch on most biners isn't that big of deal. For clipping bolts it is fantastic, but I don't do a lot of that.