Clipping metal to metal. Acceptable? Gross? YGD?

Matt N wrote: Clip biner to biner.
Twist.
No longer clipped.

bump

I knew a guy that clipped metal to metal one time...

RIP

Funny I always though this was a no-no but just recently watched Dave MacLeod's new vid 'Undiscovered' and in one section he does clip biner to biner which made me wonder if it's ok. Took a screenshot (looks like a C3 with a biner and then a quick draw):

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

Yup. Rope and pro unclip in weird ways as accident reports will reflect. No need to increase the odds with metal on metal for your pro. There is no benefit to going biner on biner. Also cross loading is much easier to achieve with two biners on each other. 

This is something that is a strict no-go for me.

Getting the send is a benefit. A coup!e tries in an awkward/cruxy spot to get the biner into the webbing can suck.

There is a small but non-zero chance of the carabiners twisting so as to unclip.  I know of one very bad incident from back in those days Jim mentioned when people sometimes clipped two carabiners to a piton.  That's probably the worst situation, when one carabiner can't move and the other one can, but I wouldn't be totally sanguine about joining slings by clipping carabiners together.  

Those same two clipped-together carabiners would be much better off both linking the slings with the gates opposite and opposed, and given this much better solution with exactly the same gear,  I'd rate clipping the biners together a fail, getting the send or not.

I agree with Em Cos that viewing this as a "metal to metal" issue rather misses the point while invoking one of a silly mantra that invites misinterpretation.

Brock B. wrote: "I tried to tell this guy he was wrong, but he brought up a valid point I hadn't thought of and I didn't have a rebuttal. MP please tell me why he was wrong and I was right. Also I don't want to look like a noob so let me make fun of his cams haha"

I had just never seen this talked about before. I had no idea who was right and I could care less, ill likely never do it. I thought it would make a fun mountain project thread and yes I did spice up the story a bit to sell it. But hey lets bash the guy for an entertaining yet educational thread and giving us something to talk about. Welcome to my level brock. Isn't it fun?

Gold Plated Rocket Pony wrote: Funny I always though this was a no-no but just recently watched Dave MacLeod's new vid 'Undiscovered' and in one section he does clip biner to biner which made me wonder if it's ok. Took a screenshot (looks like a C3 with a biner and then a quick draw):

Trailer is here: https://vimeo.com/ondemand/undiscovered/370958566?autoplay=1

I think he may do this regularly,  From the same trailer

It's not optimal, in my opinion.  If you are desperate, ok.  As a regular practice, not the best idea.

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rgold wrote:

I think he may do this regularly,  From the same trailer

It's not optimal, in my opinion.  If you are desperate, ok.  As a regular practice, not the best idea.

Interesting, he must have a reason for doing this, he seems like a really technical guy but some pros just don't give a fuck and across the pond they do a lot of weird shit.

The advantages are :
- easy to clip ( sometime impossible to clip the sling cause inside the crack, sometime it's the only option left or taking a fall by trying the academical clipping way....)
- little longer junction so less cam moving
- easier for follower to unclip/ re rack properly with one hand ( starting with the cam off the rock),  reducing the risk of dropping the piece to floor.

The disadvantage is (very) little chance to cross load the biners because we are in a sling situation ( not fixed) .

This is why using semi draws is nice . Only one biner, less load, no crossing, no difficult clip in a sling.

And it's not biner nor krab but skif...
Sorry, other country....
Mousqueton = mouskif = skif

My Feeling of D McLeod clipping krab to krab is to have a 90° Change in orientation.

The two Pictures above have the cam krab "vertical" making the Clip in a funny direction (gate up or down). Clipping krab to krab places the QD back to "horizontal" or side orientation .

When the cam is placed on a horizontal crack (hence cam krab is normally orientated), Dave just clipped the sling as the orientation was correct.

Just guessing here but I've often thought how not to back-clipped when the krab is gate up or down.

From Dumb Anchors. Not the same thing as what the OP describes, but a classic case of introducing additional points of failure.

Felix L wrote: My Feeling of D McLeod clipping krab to krab is to have a 90° Change in orientation.

Yea, that's what I was thinking. He's a pro though so, KIDS DON'T TRY THIS AT HOME!

Jim Titt wrote: You do know that in before draws were invented it was standard to clip 2 biners together?

Not really. It was more common in old days to have tied runners with one biner. Then came sewn runners and draws.

EvanHyatt wrote:

I had no idea who was right and I could care less, ill likely never do it. I thought it would make a fun mountain project thread and yes I did spice up the story a bit to sell it. But hey lets bash the guy for an entertaining yet educational thread and giving us something to talk about.

EvanHyatt wrote: ill let you guys tear him a new one

I have to echo the sentiment that it's not really ideal to have 2 non lockers attached and there is no great reason do it in most cases, but sometimes it is the best or at least a good option to fix a problem.   With good use of redundancy it becomes a non issue.    I wouldn't do it on non redundant pro that was the only thing keeping me off the deck except in a pinch.

The very strong and very competent bobbi bensman... does not seem to give a fuck

Felix L wrote: My Feeling of D McLeod clipping krab to krab is to have a 90° Change in orientation.

The two Pictures above have the cam krab "vertical" making the Clip in a funny direction (gate up or down). Clipping krab to krab places the QD back to "horizontal" or side orientation .

When the cam is placed on a horizontal crack (hence cam krab is normally orientated), Dave just clipped the sling as the orientation was correct.

Just guessing here but I've often thought how not to back-clipped when the krab is gate up or down.

What? This is gibberish.

Matt N wrote: Clip biner to biner.
Twist.
No longer clipped

Thats not true lol, try it