Agathla (El Capitan of the Desert), AZ

I'm not sure how a couple shitty people represent an entire community?

Matthias Holladay wrote:

• so sacred to locals...

You know white immigrants commited genocide against these people, yeah?

Maybe we should recognize that this spray paint atrocity is the work of a couple mischievous individuals and leave the rest of the culture out of it?

Matthais, if you're unwilling to even consider the question of "do I belong here, or am I disrespecting the space of a people that were systematically murdered and placed in camps?" then you clearly don't care.  I'm not telling people to climb it or not climb it, but I care a lot more about respecting the sacred than I do about respecting the law.

James W wrote: Why is it always "white people" who stole land from one another when people throughout history of all races have always battled over land? The Chinese then "stole" most of southeast Asia. Muslims "stole" most of North Africa and the Middle East through holy wars. Native Americans "stole" land from one another. So who has the right to the land? Was it the last victor, first owner, or the most recent nation that lost the land? How would you even know? Or we can all just move on and stop playing victim to things that never happened to us nor that each of us as individuals is even responsible for.

Have you ever heard of the trail of tears?  We’re talking about genocide here, not land theft, don’t mince words...  AFAIK, Agathla is within the Navajo Nation, which is nominally a sovereign state.  If someone walked into your church and climbed the cross, putting bolts in it on the way up, you likely would change your tune. 

If interested, message me . . .

Rich Ludwig wrote: If interested, message me . . .

Much better.  Some things are best not sprayed about.

Sure, it is sacred, and if "spray" helps to open up one of the most historic centers of climbing, then so be it. Attitudes Change!

That is why I practiced my religion on its glorious cliffs. Living in Shiprock for over a two and half years, I learned that as long as I didn't die on it, or need a rescue off it, no one cared in the least bit, in spite of the ban.

Don't forget that it was 1st closed to climbing, not because of its sacred myths, but because of a death, and a couple rescues which the tribe was ill equipped to handle.

The rape and murder of Ashlynne Mike out there created another layer of taboo. esquire.com/news-politics/a…
I was out there during her burial ceremony, and as a result, I openly worked / played hard out there advertising my exploits to dispel this attitude, and the people who knew me there were grateful.

At more than a few Chapter House meetings, I lobbied for the elders/those in power (and not completely corrupt) to consider the income potential if they treated their sacred mountain similar to how the Nepalese treat their Chomolungma.

Big $$ permits!  
In fact, the locales I spoke with recognized that all the traffic crossing their rez, didn't stop, and spend money, but instead continued to southern Utah / Colorado to unload their dollars there..

It's my hope that President Nez will push to open up these volcanic plugs, and the areas around them for recreation.

Spray can just as easily close an area to climbing as it can open it...  I spent some time climbing in Indiana, and despite what mountain project says there are a couple of high quality cliffs in the state.  Information spread faster than common sense did, and access was lost forever.

If the Navajo nation were open to climbing, that would obviously be big for the climbing community, but if some mountainproject goober hops on a “5.7” and dies before that happens, the Navajo Nation wouldn’t look on it kindly.

My two cents:

I tried to climb Agathla in the spring of 2019 in a party of three. We totally underestimated the entire undertaking and bailed after one pitch. Pretty much every hold was suspect; gear was hard to find and even more suspect. At least we had a decent belay at the end of pitch 1. The rock steepened after pitch one so it seemed like the climbing would get harder. It also seemed like route finding would be trickier and solid belays harder to come by. I've climbed a lot of choss routes but this seemed like a substantial step up from anything I've done in terms of the total amount of risk.

As far as access, we drove to the nearest house (east of the highway and north of the peak), told the owner what our objective was and asked for permission to park on the road that continued from his house toward the peak. The homeowner said he didn't care about the parking or whether we climbed the peak but that a recent attempt to climb the formation had resulted in a major rescue. We thanked him, drove to our trailhead (somewhere around 36.384,-110.2368), parked and started making last-minute preparations. While we were doing this, another local (I recall that Danny Sullivan was his name) drove up and, incensed, told us that he was the owner of the land where we were and asked what we were doing. After we explained that we thought we had obtained permission to be where we were and what our objective was, he calmed down, gave us permission to park there and wished us luck. Our experience lead us to conclude that the locals didn't have a problem with our trying to climb Agathla/El Capitan except that such an attempt had a non-negligible chance of resulting in a rescue or worse.

Who here has climbed Spider Woman Rock?

Its sort of the same as "the murder of the impossible", only its the murder of the off limits. Getting permission just takes all the fun out of it. Think of the rez cops as just another objective hazard.
Too much spray is bad, and selfish. The adventure will always be there for those willing to embrace it. Navajos won't be missing out on any huge economic booms or anything. Tourism is overrated and, too often, exploitative.

Christopher Smaling wrote: Why is everyone is half worried about violating the law of the Navajo nation, but completely unconcerned about desecrating a place that is sacred to a people that have been decimated? 

Says the guy with multiple route ticks in Yosemite Valley...

David,

Thanks for your post. Smart idea bailing after the first pitch. I kinda wish I had done that, too. It’s a choss fest  with an extremely high degree of risk.

As far as the “to climb or not to climb”  out of respect to the Navajo Nation, it should be noted that the Nation has never taken a formal position  in support of, or opposed to, rock climbing. So the comment about it “desecrating a sacred site” is not valid in this case.  

I have enormous respect for indigenous people, especially when I am visiting a sovereign nation, and would not climb anything that has been determined to be a sacred peak that should not be climbed. There are numerous examples of this around the world, and as climbers it is our responsibility to respect the lands we are visiting and represent our community well.

Also, the experience you shared about asking a local for permission is consistent with my own experiences.  It all depends on who you ask, and how you ask, but ultimately no one individual “owns“ Agathla.  So unless you have a signed letter from the President or a Resolution from the local Chapter House then  some dude giving you permission is worth about as much as all the treaties my ancestors drafted with native peoples, and then violated.

I would love it if a Navajo climbing guide would chime in to this thread to offer some perspective. 
The Navajo Nation is very progressive in terms of tourism, and is doing more to develop recreational trails than any other indigenous group in North America that I am aware of.  So anything is possible. 
But all it takes is one dumbass to ruin it for future generations of climbers. Who knows, may choss  will be all the rage someday.  Then, and only then, will this be a destination. 

MJ Nelson wrote: As far as the “to climb or not to climb”  out of respect to the Navajo Nation, it should be noted that the Nation has never taken a formal position  in support of, or opposed to, rock climbing. So the comment about it “desecrating a sacred site” is not valid in this case.

As I posted upthread:

From: https://navajonationparks.org/rules-regulations/

All areas on the Navajo Nation are closed to non-Navajos unless you have a valid camping, hiking, or backcountry permit issued by Navajo Parks and Recreation Department or other duly delegated tribal authority. Failure to have a permit is considered Trespassing on a Federal Indian Reservation.
DO NOT desecrate Navajo lands and violate the trust of Navajo people by discarding cremated human remains on tribal property. Please respect tribal beliefs.
NO ROCK CLIMBING or BASE JUMPING on Navajo Land. Please abide by the humble religious requests of the Navajo people and do not climb on the Monuments. Navajo law will be strictly enforced on this issue.

I do not know if Dine leadership has issued a formal position, but the web site makes it pretty clear. Is that formal enough?

Marc,

Good on ya' for doing your research. The website you mentioned is specifically dedicated to Navajo Nation Parks (Monument Valley, Four Corners, Lake Powell, etc.) so it's hard to say how this applies to other areas of the Navajo Nation. I am going to reach out to a friend who works in Navajo Nation government and ask for clarification. I'll post what I learn from him.

Thanks,

Matthias Holladay wrote: 
In fact, the locales I spoke with recognized that all the traffic crossing their rez, didn't stop, and spend money, but instead continued to southern Utah / Colorado to unload their dollars there..

It's my hope that President Nez will push to open up these volcanic plugs, and the areas around them for recreation.

I've done a couple trips to the Navajo Nation, one just a few years ago. I specifically traveled all over the rez on my last trip; the point was to see it and only it in detail. I would have loved to stop and drop more money, learn more about the culture and whatnot, but honestly, the residents are hardly friendly for the most part. I drove through many small towns and never stopped because I got cold and sometimes hostile looks from the locals. The rez is also an extremely difficult place to bivy if you're not near a town with lodging.... while there may be miles of open land, there is always a house somewhere attached to that land, regardless of how backwater. Lot of people have extensive grazing lands out there.

I spoke with a Navajo acquaintance about my most recent experience; he was originally from Farmington but had traveled the world in the military and was well educated. He said when he has traveled to more rural parts of the rez to hunt or do other recreation, he has received hostility at times from the locals as well despite being Dine himself.    
 

Christopher Smaling wrote:

Have you ever heard of the trail of tears?  We’re talking about genocide here, not land theft, don’t mince words...  AFAIK, Agathla is within the Navajo Nation, which is nominally a sovereign state.  If someone walked into your church and climbed the cross, putting bolts in it on the way up, you likely would change your tune. 

Leave your and every other effing religion out of it...the Holocaust definitively proved the non-existence of a kind and compassionate god...

My point was to have some respect for the land of a decimated people.  It ain't yours, it's theirs.

How would you feel if every other day, a bunch of Navajos drove up your driveway, knocked on your door and asked if they could climb your backyard tree?  Or better yet! People parked in your driveway and just started hiking all around your house without asking and made your dog bark.   Then one of them falls out of the tree and requires you to take them to the doctor at your expense.  There are thousands of knuckle-headed Bilagáanas (white folk) driving around Monument Valley looking to get off the highway and experience the environment/culture and the locals could give a rats ass whether they are a climber, mountain biker or a grimy hippie looking to have a real Navajo Peyote trip.  To them you are all nothing more than spoiled rotten, ignorant annoyances at best or straight up trespassers.  They want their peace and quiet.  They want to be left alone.  If you trespassed on private land in Colorado/Wyoming/Montana the same as you feel entitled to on the Rez, you would have 30/06 lead zinging over your head and an escort from the Sheriff.  

     

Kyran Keisling wrote: They want their peace and quiet.  They want to be left alone.  If you trespassed on private land in Colorado/Wyoming/Montana the same as you feel entitled to on the Rez, you would have 30/06 lead zinging over your head and an escort from the Sheriff.  
     

+1  I think this goes for everyone all the time

I never feel entitled to trespass, same as most people

Everyone knows local CO/WY cowboys shoot  .270 Win's... :)