Question about using Gunks tie offs on old rigid stem cams

I came into possession of some OG rigid friends a while ago, and have since cut off the old slings and slung them with gunks as everywhere I've researched says it's better. I used 5mm Maxim tech cord tied with triple fisherman, and each sling is ~15cm long.

However everything I've read says gunks are better because they make horizontal placements better - but what about vertical? I'm climbing in Squamish, so the majority of the placements I'm making will be vertical. Are people having both gunks and regular ties and using one for horizontal/one for vertical? Or just using the gunks for everything?  I'm just worried about the trigger wires getting caught with the sling if I fall to the "wrong" side on a vertical placement

Cheers

The gunks tie-off on all your cams will forever be a racking pain in the ass. I climbed with rigid stem Friends for as long as they were manufactured (and then some) and never, not once, ever, did I ever feel that my cam placement might be compromised in a horizontal crack. Grant, I’m not a gunks climber but as a Colorado and Yosemite climber I never felt the need. I’ll bet you find the same thing in Squamish.

At the time there were no cams with flexible stems but now you have options. Carry the old Friends and use them in most placements and save your flexy cams for the horizontals. Or, better, protect the horizontals with Tricams.

Easy Peezey

Mal

If you didn’t do it already, most guys that use Gunks tie offs will chamfer the hole used for the sling. There are a number of ways to do it but suffice to say a rounded edge is much better than a sharp edge. 

I've personally seen a rigid-stem cam snap right off when it was placed in a horizontal and fallen on without a Gunks tie-off, and heard about two or three other cases as well.  If you're going to use the cams in horizontals, I think the tie-offs are a very good idea.  Moreover, I suspect that a tied-off rigid-stem cam has more holding power in a horizontal than a modern flexible-stem cam has.  The tie-off is also critical if you have a vertical placement requiring you to orient the piece straight-in with the stem perpendicular to the rock face, so the added sling isn't just for horizontal placements.

Chamfering the holes (a small round circular file will do) is a really good idea, as the tie-off is the weak point as it is.  

For general use, where lots of vertical placements are also anticipated,  you'll want slings in the stem-end holes too, and these make racking better as well.  Make the tie-offs so that they hang down slightly lower than the stem-end slings and clip both to the racking biner.  A bit of a cluster but we certainly managed ok with it BITD

I've used the rigid stem friends a bit. I never found the need for the gunks tie-off. Horizontal placements are just not that common for me, and I always had some other flexible stem cams as well for those rare situations. Climbing a variety of rock in AZ and CA - mostly granite, sandstone, basalt. 

BITD I had tie offs and slings, and very rarely felt the need to clip the tie off. Climbed a lot of southern sandstone which has its share of horizontals. I still have a number of circa mid-80s Friends and would not hesitate to use them. I vaguely remember a study back in the '90s that claimed rigid stems were stronger than cabled cams when the stem is aligned in the direction of fall: Just because there is new and 'improved' gear does not mean that the old stuff suddenly doesn't work anymore. The new stuff is certainly lighter, and since I don't have to count every penny anymore the Friends stay home. But they're still good to the last drop.

I see that you have mixed how you treaded the cord on your cams. I always thread the cord so it clears trigger wires when the wide cams are down. We have a lot of quartzite in NC. Lots of horizontals. There is nothing stronger or more durable in a shallow horizontal than a tied off hard stem. 

Just seconding the observation that you can sling both holes, arranging the lengths so that you can clip both strands when racking.  Otherwise, the tie-offs hang down and become annoying.  I always used supertape tied with a double fisherman's because it seemed to rack better than cord.

FWIW, I have a set of rigid stem friends with both slings and tie offs. The sling is better for racking and vertical placements. The tie offs in horizontals are bomber! Enjoy

Paul Zander wrote: I've used the rigid stem friends a bit. I never found the need for the gunks tie-off. Horizontal placements are just not that common for me, and I always had some other flexible stem cams as well for those rare situations. Climbing a variety of rock in AZ and CA - mostly granite, sandstone, basalt. 

So you're saying if you don't anticipate having many horizontal placements (which I don't), just use the regular sling hole?

Erik Jackson wrote:

So you're saying if you don't anticipate having many horizontal placements (which I don't), just use the regular sling hole?

Yeah, that's what I'm saying. Especially if you're using these as your 2nd set, so you have the option of flexible stem cams. If they were my only set I would give more thought to the Gunks tie-off. 

The number of necessary horizontal cam placements I've encountered in squamish is extremely low (bluffs, chief, and murrin area). I wouldn't worry about it that much. Generally there are better options even if you can place a horizontal. Tbh I'd rather place a tricam than a rigid stem.

It's not exactly a matter of anticipated use, because given what I've seen, I think the "correct" advice is to not use rigid stem cams  without tie-off loops in horizontal placements unless you can get the cam in far enough so that the stem-end hole is close (say within an inch) to the rock face.  Same for vertical placements in constrictions that force you to have the cam stem perpendicular to the rock face.  So if you aren't going to install tie-offs, then don't use the cams in placements that are going to put a lot of leverage on a stem that can't move to align with the load, this regardless of whether your expectations of such placements are high or low.

Maybe I should have been more clear with my question as I haven't really gotten any new information. If I don't plan on placing these cams in horizontals, is there any reason to use the gunks tie off?

Erik Jackson wrote: Maybe I should have been more clear with my question as I haven't really gotten any new information. If I don't plan on placing these cams in horizontals, is there any reason to use the gunks tie off?

No, there is no reason to use a Gunks tie-off for normal vertical placements. It looks like it could interfere with the trigger in a vert placement, if you use the tie-off like in the picture you attached.

Erik Jackson wrote: Maybe I should have been more clear with my question as I haven't really gotten any new information. If I don't plan on placing these cams in horizontals, is there any reason to use the gunks tie off?

I've explained the possibility for using them in certain vertical placements twice now.

Jim Corbett wrote:...The new stuff is certainly lighter, and since I don't have to count every penny anymore the Friends stay home. But they're still good to the last drop.

The #2.5 Old school rigid stem Friend is lighter than the #1 BD Ultralight Camalot. 

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

But with less range! So you need to bring more cams overall

Well they do have a slightly bigger range but in practice the number of cams i carry has more to do with the number of placements i need.

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

But with less range! So you need to bring more cams overall

That's as silly argument as me saying that because the old school Friends are lighter you can carry more. 

rgold wrote:

I've explained the possibility for using them in certain vertical placements twice now.

I appreciate your detailed answers! But I'm specifically looking for insight into using gunks on cams that are placed in verticals. I'm aware of the reasons why gunks are used in horizontals; my situation is boiled down to "does clipping a gunks in a vertical crack effect its security?"

Aka if I will largely be using these cams in verticals, would it be better to forgo the gunks because it may be less bomber than a stem end tie off (in a vertical!!) and just use different pro in horizontals? Or keep the gunks and clip them for both horizontal/vertical placements because gunks vs stem end in vertical may not make much of a difference, but is superior in horizontals?

Like you mentioned, having both a stem end sling and a gunks is an option but I'd prefer to just have one.

If gunks isn't as bomber in vertical cracks then I'll go for stem end; otherwise I'll go with gunks so I can have the option to place these cams in horizontals if the situation ever arises.

Quick edit, replace "horizontal placements" with any placement that would lever the stem of the cam, like you mentioned earlier