Crevasse rescue

mpech wrote:It takes 4 chamonix professional rescuers multiple hours to get two people out of a crevasse.

For what it's worth, my partner and I watched a skier go into an open crevasse on Mt Baker a few years ago, and we had him out in under 30 minutes.  I suspect that the time for extraction could vary significantly based on the circumstances.  In our case, he was quite far in and fairly banged up, but conscious and coherent enough to avoid one of us needed to rappel in and rig him up, which undoubtedly saved a lot of time.

Note that this rescue was outside the "traditional" crevasse rescue scenario(s) because the victim was not in our party, and was not roped up due to being on the descent, so the traditional taught workflow couldn't be followed.  I'm a pretty strong believer in teaching crevasse rescue as a toolbox and not a sequence as a result of this.

Jeremy Cote wrote: This is the method I learned:

http://blog.alpineinstitute.com/2010/05/crevasse-rescue-review.html

Also, check out the ENSA video for some real world testing regarding knots in the rope. Some very interesting data here:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IgNR-VZMwHo

And for a simple way to pass knots:

https://www.petzl.com/BE/en/Sport/Crevasse-fall--hauling-on-a-rope-with-knots

One thing to keep in mind which has not already been mentioned is that in a 2 person rescue the hardest part will be establishing the anchor while holding the full weight of your partner. If you have never tried doing this in a mock scenario it is an eye opening experience, knots or no knots. Way harder than it looks and seems on "paper".

Jeremy, you have kind of hit the nail on the head.

Your first link is to a method that some sources say doesn't work with knots in the rope as dragging the knots back over the lip or through the  ice  channel the rope cut is hard/impossible. The second link shows knots are the way to go. But doesn't say how to complete the rescue. The third, by existing, suggests that pulling the knots back over the edge is going to work.

Others say the only way to do this is with a spare rope, or the spare coils. Petzl have another pdf indicating how to do the latter. I added up how long the rope would have to be: 112m. 

Kyle Tarry wrote:  I'm a pretty strong believer in teaching crevasse rescue as a toolbox and not a sequence as a result of this.

I agree. However where things seem to have all gone wrong is where the instructions/tools conflict. For example saying knots are the way to go, but not whether it is then impossible to use a z-pulley on the knotted rope because if the first knot passed the lip, it ain't coming back through the channel the rope cut in the ice. So, if you use knots, you need a whole new system. Which is fine, as long as a mate told you this, because Petzl are not going to.

One of the responses on ukc outlined the optimal solution: use double ropes, with the second carrying the other rope. Leader has the majority of the first rope (second has just enough of it to build an anchor and the rest is between them with knots).

If you really don't want to climb on doubles, then have the second carry a thin glacier emergency rope as a backup.

If the person who fell is nonresponsive and no third party rescue is coming, then you'll be very happy to have that extra rope.

The takeaway is that glacier travel in a pair where no other rescue is likely is very serious and should be treated as such.

David Coley wrote:

Which is fine, as long as a mate told you this, because Petzl are not going to.

Petzl states this clearly and explicitly on their website.

https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Approaching-a-glacier-as-a-roped-team-of-two?ActivityName=Mountaineering

Note: the knots in the rope make the hauling system more complicated to set up after a crevasse fall.
Two options:
• Solution 1: set up a hauling system on a knotted rope (see Crevasse falls: hauling on a knotted rope).
• Solution 2: you have enough extra rope to set up a hauling system without knots on the free end of the rope sent down to the victim (for example, you can have this amount of extra rope by having joined two 50-60 m ropes).

Jeremy Cote wrote: There was a video kicking around years ago of crevasse rescue training showing rope team members getting jacked off their feet. Although I seem to remember this was illustrating the potential hazards of pre-rigging a chest harness and running the rope through it while in travel mode.

curt86iroc wrote:

i remember the same exact video, but for the life of me i can't find it

Curt and Jeremy, are you thinking of this one? https://youtu.be/kxArSDMsiQI

Eye-opening, but really hard to use as an instructional video in a serious setting because of the random ice vagina closer.

yup, thats it!!

Kyle Tarry wrote:

Petzl states this clearly and explicitly on their website.

https://www.petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Approaching-a-glacier-as-a-roped-team-of-two?ActivityName=Mountaineering

Again, this is my point.

1. By mentioning Solution 1, they are implying it will work. Which many think is wrong. (I don't know  if it would work, but I suspect not.)
2. Once Solution 1 has been applied and found not to work, Solution 2 is then not an option as this has to be done right at the start of the day - by taking two ropes. This needs to be made clear
3. The material you point to is not crossed referenced in the later main hauling instructions, all of which show a 2 person team petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Creva…. There is an image in that which does imply the ropes must the joined (the assisted hoist) otherwise the rope is 112m long to be consistent with the material you point to, but no knot is drawn, and the fact that there are two ropes not mentioned. 

David Coley wrote:

Again, this is my point.

1. By mentioning Solution 1, they are implying it will work. Which many think is wrong. (I don't know  if it would work, but I suspect not.)
2. Once Solution 1 has been applied and found not to work, Solution 2 is then not an option as this has to be done right at the start of the day - by taking two ropes. This needs to be made clear
3. The material you point to is not crossed referenced in the later main hauling instructions, all of which show a 2 person team petzl.com/NL/en/Sport/Creva…. There is an image in that which does imply the ropes must the joined (the assisted hoist) otherwise the rope is 112m long to be consistent with the material you point to, but no knot is drawn, and the fact that there are two ropes not mentioned. 

It seems like you believe that solutions 1 and 2 should be undertaken in that order.  That is not the case.  They are simply 2 different options for how to solve the problem.  You need to use your brain to figure out which one is most likely to work for a given objective, team, and conditions.  They are both valid in some circumstances.

As to the rest of your comments, this is exactly what I mean about why you shouldn't teach this as a sequence.  Petzl is showing the basics for how to build a 3:1, because it's a good skill to know.  It's silly for them to also give every possible variation of every scenario you might encounter, such as a knot joining 2 ropes, or butterfly knots in the rope, or middle climber falls in and has a partner on either side, or...  You should learn how to build a 3:1.  You should learn how to haul past a knot.  You should learn how to drop a second rope (both a single line and a drop-C).  And then you apply these skills to whatever scenario you're presented with, using your noggin.  There is NO SUCH THING as one sequence of events that you're going to go through for 2 person glacier travel (or any glacier travel) because each individual step has many possible variations that make sense in different situations.

Kyle,
I don't think we disagree, I just think it rather important that in such material they point out common critical issues and when some things might or might not work. In fact they get some way to doing this in their little boxes on pros and cons.

So for example with the assisted hoist, point out that this is not possible for a team of two and a normal length rope if you have tied in as indicated in the previous doc. You have to use two ropes and join them as shown in one of the diagrams. Yes, you need to learn a variety of tools, but you need clear instruction in when these tools can be linked, and when they can't.

For the hauling past a knot, just say that this will sometimes be impossible, if this proves so, consider doing X.

In the arc'teryx video, don't show a rope being hauled with the knots in, but fail to show how the knots were removed. In fact in that video the instructor seems to be surprised when his prussic hits a knot, you can almost feel an inner "bugger", then the film cuts and then all the knots have evaporated.

It all just takes a few words.

 

David Coley wrote: So for example with the assisted hoist, point out that this is not possible for a team of two and a normal length rope if you have tied in as indicated in the previous doc.

This isn't true at all, there are lots of ways you can haul using the exact things they show.

• If you're tied in 15m apart on a 50m or 60m rope, even with a few knots in the rope you have enough in extra coils to drop a free end to the fallen climber and haul them out on a knot-free strand.
• If you don't have enough leftover rope, but your fallen partner can assist, you can haul them, and have them briefly unweight the rope in order to untie knots as they come along.
• If you don't have enough leftover rope and your partner cannot assist, you may be able to haul them and pass the knots.  Petzl also has a page showing you how to do this: https://www.petzl.com/BE/en/Sport/Crevasse-fall--hauling-on-a-rope-with-knots
• If you have tied two ropes together in the manner that they show, then you can drop a loop to your partner and haul them on that loop in the exact way shown on the hauling website.  Exact like they show it.

Given all these possible scenarios and options for hauling, I'm struggling to understand why you think hauling is "not possible" for a team of two.

Kyle Tarry wrote: This isn't true at all, there are lots of ways you can haul using the exact things they show.

• If you're tied in 15m apart on a 50m or 60m rope, even with a few knots in the rope you have enough in extra coils to drop a free end to the fallen climber and haul them out on a knot-free strand.
• If you don't have enough leftover rope, but your fallen partner can assist, you can haul them, and have them briefly unweight the rope in order to untie knots as they come along.
• If you don't have enough leftover rope and your partner cannot assist, you may be able to haul them and pass the knots.  Petzl also has a page showing you how to do this: https://www.petzl.com/BE/en/Sport/Crevasse-fall--hauling-on-a-rope-with-knots
• If you have tied two ropes together in the manner that they show, then you can drop a loop to your partner and haul them on that loop in the exact way shown on the hauling website.  Exact like they show it.

Given all these possible scenarios and options for hauling, I'm struggling to understand why you think hauling is "not possible" for a team of two.

Kyle, 

I know an assisted hoist can be formed, but pointing out  that the Petzl one can not be in this setting. 50m rope - 15 tie in = 40m, shared between the two in coils = 20m per climber. The diagram shows a  system which requires over 3 times the tie-in distance i.e. 45m, but you will only have 35m (the 15m of tie in plus the 20m on your back). It isn't even close to a working system.

Yet this is not pointed out. Better would have been to say this is a system if you have a spare rope. But then, they would need a very different diagram as it clearly shows the guy on the original rope and you would rig it differently anyhow.

David Coley wrote:

The diagram shows a  system which requires over 3 times the tie-in distance i.e. 45m

None of the hauling systems that they show require 45m of additional free rope for climbers 15m apart.

I would recommend hiring a guide for a day to go over these skills and systems with you in a hands-on environment, that will help answer a lot of the questions that you have.

Hi Kyle,
I was counting the rope the person fell on as part of the 45.
To summarise. Rope = 60, 15 between climbers therefore 45/2 in coils on each of their backs.

45/2 < 30 which is the length of the drop loop. Plus all the other rope at his feet. One commentator suggested that they are trying to suggest the rescuer stand close to the edge to communicate better (which adds the best part of another 15m of magic rope)

If you can show my how that method (AS DRAWN) could ever be used (note they are not using a spare rope, it is clearly the main rope) with a 60m rope and a 15m tie in distance (let alone a 50m rope and brake knots), I will put 100 quid in the local SAR pot.

David Coley wrote: Hi Kyle,
I was counting the rope the person fell on as part of the 45.
To summarise. Rope = 60, 15 between climbers therefore 45/2 in coils on each of their backs.

45/2 < 30 which is the length of the drop loop. Plus all the other rope at his feet. One commentator suggested that they are trying to suggest the rescuer stand close to the edge to communicate better (which adds the best part of another 15m of magic rope)

If you can show my how that method (AS DRAWN) could ever be used (note they are not using a spare rope, it is clearly the main rope) with a 60m rope and a 15m tie in distance (let alone a 50m rope and brake knots), I will put 100 quid in the local SAR pot.

David:

One thing I think missing from the equation here is that 15m of rope is consumed among the two people, but the distance between them will end up closer to 10m. In other words, if a 10m distance between the people is desired, about 5m of rope will need to be used for tie-in knots and stopper knots (I typically use 3 each) between the two people. So, 15m of rope leaves 45m /2 = 22.5m carried per person, just a bit more than the 10m x 2 = 20m required to reach the person in the crevasse when using a drop loop system.

Beyond that, I think you really start to end up in the specifics of the situation. If you really need to liberate additional rope for some reason, the anchor holding the person in the crack could be extended and affixed to the rope with a rope grab of some kind (or a new anchor constructed closer to the edge affixed with a rope grab). If you need to use a direct haul despite braking knots, this may be possible if the rope hasn't cut in too deeply, with knots getting passed during the haul, careful edge prep, and perhaps some judicious vector pulling. It starts to really depend on the exact situation. Finally, if there are any other teams around, a 2:1 haul by an outside party is often quite simple and effective.

Derek,
I wondered about the knots too. But Petzl measure the 15m after the knots are tied. So it's actually worse. It just can't be done as drawn.

Yep loads of possibilities like a second rope. But not as drawn, as this is clearly the main rope. 

My point was a general one. Not confided to this illustration, but of a whole bunch of resources, where because they had not done it for real in their video or whatever they didn't see the errors.

When I wrote the self rescue chapter of my book, I spent a lot of time hauling people to reduce this possibility. However even then I bet I included the odd error.

The one by arc'teryx where the brake knots are untied dispite the rope being load, which it isn't because there isn't anyone hanging off the rope, is a real shocker 

David Coley wrote: Derek,
I wondered about the knots too. But Petzl measure the 15m after the knots are tied. So it's actually worse. It just can't be done as drawn.

Yep loads of possibilities like a second rope. But not as drawn, as this is clearly the main rope.

My point was a general one. Not confided to this illustration, but of a whole bunch of resources, where because they had not done it for real in their video or whatever they didn't see the errors.

When I wrote the self rescue chapter of my book, I spent a lot of time hauling people to reduce this possibility. However even then I bet I included the odd error.

The one by arc'teryx where the brake knots are untied dispite the rope being load, which it isn't because there isn't anyone hanging off the rope, is a real shocker 

Got it. To be honest, I haven't taken a deep dive into the Petzl website stuff in a minute, so wasn't aware of exactly what you were referencing. I'll take your word for it, though, and certainly agree with your math. I practice the skill somewhat regularly as a guide, so I know there's lots of tricks and shenanigans, but the only way it works for sure with 2 people is that the knots chew up enough of the rope that the actual distance is shortened. Sometimes I think that might also be why the recommendation for a party of 2 on continental US glaciers is so consistently 35 feet of between climbers, lest you have insufficient rope for a drop loop haul.

60 meter, drop-C into a Z if you need to haul unassisted. Also call a rescue with the Inreach you brought.

Found this browsing on YouTube and I think the system he shows is quite good ​From outdoor research ​​​

Mads Hvid wrote: Found this browsing on YouTube and I think the system he shows is quite good From outdoor research 

Agreed. He seems to get it.