Stop Making Movies About White Guys Doing Cool Shit: The Sequel

Etha Williams wrote: The criticism I've seen has centered around this statement on the Kickstarter page:
Personally, I'm pretty psyched to see the film and don't mind that they chose to focus on hard climbing and not to foreground gender/sex-specific issues. But I do find it a little disappointing that they felt the need to make this disclaimer on their funding page--as though a film that did focus on these things would be less worthwhile. Why would I be less interested in a woman talking about how gender expectations affected her climbing than I was in hearing how Tommy's divorce affected his, or less interested in a woman talking about her period than Cedar talking about climbing with a messed up ankle?

I also think there's a prevalent mentality (far from limited to the climbing world) that holds that underrepresented folks should be grateful for any representation they get, and that any critiques people might bring up about efforts to include/highlight them is ungrateful whining. And I think it's worth reflecting on where this knee-jerk reaction comes from.

Sure, there's a point to the saying "don't let the perfect be the enemy of the good." But at the same time, how are we going to do better if people don't speak up and offer constructive criticism when they see things that they view as flawed--even, or especially, when the objects of criticism are working towards a worthy goal?

(P.S. Most of the comments I've seen about the project have been positive, which also makes the focus here on the critical comments kind of interesting. Almost anything on the internet will receive a healthy mix of praise and critique--why should this be any different?)

Lol I get the feeling they got way to many comments of stupid filler for their climbing film so they made the disclaimer mocking those that felt that stuff should be added into a climbing film. 

TBH until a climbing film includes me I am going to maintain that white males are oppressing me.

Jon Hillis wrote:

Lol I get the feeling they got way to many comments of stupid filler for their climbing film so they made the disclaimer mocking those that felt that stuff should be added into a climbing film. 

TBH until a climbing film includes me I am going to maintain that white males are oppressing me.

Cant remember where but someone was complaining that the women were all Americans. And then someone pointed out that they weren't. And on and on...Should the piece be made to satisfy a market/community need? Should it purely be a reflection of the directors intent? Should it inform or just entertain or depict? There is room for all of that and no specific piece has an obligation to be everything to everyone.

This post violated Guideline #1 and has been removed.

Ma Ja wrote: I've got the solution! A global "White Guy Suicide Pact". It'll be great! We just all sign the pact, and then follow through on the agreed upon date and time. There wont be any more issues in the world once that small step is taken, and youtube climbing videos will be super diverse, and everyone will be happy. The only issue I can forsee is the rest of you all having to kill every white male kid when they turn 18. Now that might get a little messy, so good luck with that one. The saddest thing, if this goes through (fingers crossed), is there will be no more Rick and Morty 

You OK, buddy? Need someone to talk to? It's OK to cry sometimes you know. 

Let me know if you need a shoulder. I'm here for ya.

Kalil Oldham wrote: It's always interesting to me to see the intelligence, creativity, and energy the anti-SJW crowd brings to their critiques of people they believe have over-stepped or exaggerated in their efforts to shine a light on inequality.

I wish ya'll would bring that same energy to the fight against actual injustice, oppression, and racism.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk :)

Is the article at the center of this discussion, fighting "actual injustice, oppression, and racism", or just rambling against a movie for no real reason? 

Or are they accusing the subject, creator, producer, sponsors, etc of rotpunkt of actual injustice, oppression, and racism?
If not, why don't they "bring that same energy to the fight against actual injustice, oppression, and racism"?

caughtinside wrote
There are a couple ways of looking at it sure -- critics are looking to shine a light on inequality.  Another way to look at it is the far left being overly critical and alienating more center-left people.  

If folks on the "center left" spent as much time doing the work as they spent criticizing "the far left" we'd have a chance at real progress around issues both can agree on, whether it's addressing injustice an oppression, forever wars, corporatist tax and fiscal policy, a heartless insurance industry, greenhouse emissions run wild, dismal educational outcomes, low voter participation, etc. Instead, now it's a game to call out the SJWs in the funniest or cleverest or smartest way possible. For what, ya'll.

In reference to the article in question, the argument falls apart when you consider David Lama, or any other mixed race person. David Lama, to the average eye, looks like a white guy, but most would say he's not. So, is the argument against skin pigment (which would be so outrageously ironic it's funny) or personal lineage? If you have one white parent, are you still "the problem" or is 50% ok? Or is 50% ok unless you look REALLY white?

The argument's whole framing is garbage. It'd be easier for the writer to frame a persuasive piece around Men vs Women than Whites vs Non Whites, sorry, White Men vs everyone else.

Kalil Oldham wrote:

Instead, now it's a game to call out the SJWs in the funniest or cleverest or smartest way possible. For what, ya'll.

For what? 

Well the backlash to PC/SJW contributed to getting Trump elected, if that matters. 

I went climbing. I saw diversity. The raddest thing I sae was a 110 lb brownish guy send a v9. They got video from 3 different angles. I hear they may make a full length movie of this gripping 5 move ascent and his struggles as a brown climber. I might watch it, but I haven't even seen Free Ascent yet.

Kalil Oldham wrote: It's always interesting to me to see the intelligence, creativity, and energy the anti-SJW crowd brings to their critiques of people they believe have over-stepped or exaggerated in their efforts to shine a light on inequality.

I wish ya'll would bring that same energy to the fight against actual injustice, oppression, and racism.

Thank you for coming to my Ted Talk :)

You are sort of assuming that people are just being anti SJW and not bringing any energy to the fight against actual injustice, oppression and racism. I am putting little energy into my critique of an article that I believe to be the opposite direction of how to fight against actual injustice, oppression and racism. In my day to day life I put a lot more energy into treating all people without malice or hatred. Because I could never put it into better words myself I will just quote an old commandment most of us have probably been taught as children and seem to forget as adults, "Love others as much as you love yourself" Matt 22:39.  I believe the first thing to do before we attempt to right a wrong is to ask ourselves if we are the problem. I think some (not all) of the SJW crowd becomes the problem they are trying to fix. Also two words keep getting tossed around a lot in this forum and that's criticism and critique and they are very different, just like being judgmental is very different than having and using good judgement. I'm as guilty as anyone of letting critique cross the line into criticism. I think sometimes the way to tell the difference is criticism is generally humorless and critique can and does use humor and laughter to make a point, but I realize that's probably not always 100% accurate. 

Kalil Oldham wrote:

Props for this, but it's a low bar. The dismantling of injustice, oppression, and racism requires deliberate and intentional action.

I will politely disagree. Trying to live ones life showing love and kindness and without malice and hatred is not a low bar. 

Kalil Oldham wrote:

Props for this, but it's a low bar. The dismantling of injustice, oppression, and racism requires deliberate and intentional action.

More helpful than running a hate blog. 

Kalil Oldham wrote:

Props for this, but it's a low bar. The dismantling of injustice, oppression, and racism requires deliberate and intentional action.

Enlighten us pathetic anti sjw plebs oh most woke one. Tell us about your deliberate and intentional actions in dismantling injustice? Also explain how the author of the racist article this conversation stemmed from is dismantling injustice with her oppression. 

You seem to know so much about me and my views you must have special insight into this subject. And you seem so self righteous that you must be on the very front lines of the fight for equality so tell us all about it!

Being a dumb, privilaged white male I need someone to explain how making videos of ground breaking achievements in climbing marginalizes women and others. Are there people out there ignoring similar achievements made by women/others or preventing women/others from achieving similar things? If so we MUST stop them!

Good thing we have all these upper middle class white woke people to tell all the brown people when and at what they should be offended.  Someone let me know when someone with extra pigment in their epidermis solos El Cap or climbs 5.15d.

I'm not telling anyone when and what should offend them. I'm just trying to understand why they choose to get so offended by the accomplishments of others who happen to be white males.

Kalil Oldham wrote: 
Being "kind" to everyone is great and something we should all strive for. Advancing the cause of justice is difficult and it requires work.

 Advancing the cause of justice is difficult and it does require work. I couldn't agree more. That work starts with kindness, just behavior and fairness, to all. Tilting at windmills in not high on my list of things to do.   

One year in school when I was young my friends and I would make fart jokes, penis jokes, and whatnot. After school we would still be at it. Thinking of new jokes and finding material for them everywhere we looked. It was all consuming and on our minds constantly - trying to outdo one another. We would always get a reaction from people. Sometimes people laughed. Sometimes not.

My teacher that year said something to me that has always stuck around; "Get your mind out of the gutter." You see, we found our fun and laughter always and everywhere because we were looking for it. Our minds were already in an elementary and juvenile place. It came easy.

Needless to say, we grew out of it because our minds found other things to obsess over. Women became a new interest and our minds went into a different gutter.  

When you are already thinking something and project your thoughts onto others and you get no laughs or the reaction expected, most likely your audience's mind was not in the gutter, or they grew out of that way of thinking.

When you see people doing things, building stuff, or being lazy... it is because that person made a choice to pursue it. No one is stopping anyone from picking up a hammer, camera, or whatever. I do see people complaining about not using their hammer correctly, loading the wrong film, and other, though. 

BigFeet wrote: One year in school when I was young my friends and I would make fart jokes, penis jokes, and whatnot. After school we would still be at it. Thinking of new jokes and finding material for them everywhere we looked. It was all consuming and on our minds constantly - trying to outdo one another. We would always get a reaction from people. Sometimes people laughed. Sometimes not.

My teacher that year said something to me that has always stuck around; "Get your mind out of the gutter." You see, we found our fun and laughter always and everywhere because we were looking for it. Our minds were already in an elementary and juvenile place. It came easy.

Needless to say, we grew out of it because our minds found other things to obsess over. Women became a new interest and our minds went into a different gutter.  

When you are already thinking something and project your thoughts onto others and you get no laughs or the reaction expected, most likely your audience's mind was not in the gutter, or they grew out of that way of thinking.

When you see people doing things, building stuff, or being lazy... it is because that person made a choice to pursue it. No one is stopping anyone from picking up a hammer, camera, or whatever. I do see people complaining about not using their hammer correctly, loading the wrong film, and other, though. 

I think the SJWs would take issue with your last point. I BELIEVE what they are saying is that, if the outcome of a certain activity, for example movies of white male climbers doing awesome shit, isn't equitable then certain groups are being SOCIALIZED to not excel to the level of the majority being represented and that needs to be corrected by activism. That activism takes many forms including not showing movies about white guys doing cool shit. There is a lot of bullshit to this way of thinking but I THINK this might be kind of what they are saying. It assumes a ton of things about the past, present, future and just human nature in general. 

Jared Willis wrote:

I think the SJWs would take issue with your last point. I BELIEVE what they are saying is that, if the outcome of a certain activity, for example movies of white male climbers doing awesome shit, isn't equitable then certain groups are being SOCIALIZED to not excel to the level of the majority being represented and that needs to be corrected by activism. That activism takes many forms including not showing movies about white guys doing cool shit. There is a lot of bullshit to this way of thinking but I THINK this might be kind of what they are saying. It assumes a ton of things about the past, present, future and just human nature in general. 

Well, that is their fallacy, not mine. I'm not even going to entertain such a belief. Nobody should. 

Also, you can tell this group of glamour cowboys they should socialize to build their own thing with like minded and get the result they so desire. I would probably watch it, if not contribute in some way, if interested, but don't make the kids playing four square, shooting hoops, climbing on the monkey bars, or any other manner of lively fun all stop everything they are doing to come look at the cool sandcastle every five minutes.