Just watched someone get dropped

bryans wrote:

You just can't win on MP can you? Always somebody ready to roast ya sincerity with some douchy one-liner. Good luck on those j tree 12s on yer to-do list buddy, hope you don't get, um, dropped! 

LOL. touche!!!!

Gumby the White wrote:

LOL. touche!!!!

Oh blessing upon you Gumby, the 12s are most hard at the Joshua I know this from talking to local climbers there.  The harder battle in life is already won however don't you think?  He looked into your profile for details so you win!

Artem Vasilyev wrote:

Quite a few climbers get lowered off of the end of their ropes each year. It's one of the most common climbing accident that there is. I happened to know 2 people who were involved in this type of accident. As far as being dropped while on lead - I've been the victim of 1 (not 4+) of those accidents in my lifetime, and I know of exactly one other person who was dropped on lead.

I'm sure, given the frequency of climbing accidents and the relatively small population of climbers, that there are plenty of others on this board with stories. However, they likely are hesitant to share their experience due to the toxicity afforded by the internet (not sure the folks on this board would have the balls to be their internet selves in person).

Again, I don't think that what you insinuated is pertinent. I am diligent about safe practices, however, it is impossible to control the actions of others. It is important we share experiences to instill a sense of diligence in the greater community.

People who comment with the attitude of "that person is an idiot, that would never happen to me" from the bottom of a bag of chips are likely to be the least self aware and most prone to making mistakes - in addition to not contributing anything of value to the conversation.

Why are you so sensitive? Maybe instead of calming toxic behavior of others consider that you may be the one that is incorrect. Time to learn instead of being defensive.

The climbers with 20+ years of experience appear to have less experience with belay error than you do despite climbing for significantly more time. Think about it before you get your panties in a bunch and jump on the attack.

bryans wrote: Geez, lots of piling on Artem here! I You guys literally don't know him and are just tearing apart his words to feel superior or focus on some perceived logical gap, or whatever. I've done it to other people too, I'm no better, but still, allow me to educate about him and this issue of young climbers seeing/experiencing a seemingly excessive amount of dropping/lowering incidents

My point: I think because he's 25 his cohort is generally younger climbers and it does seem to be a fact that it's the younger climbers responsible for much of the dropping/decking we keep hearing about. 2 years ago at a local gym I saw a guy in his early 20s drop another guy in his early 20s from the last bolt of a lead climb. With an ATC. Belayer got rope burns. because he let the rope go through his hands. His falling body missed me by less than 5 feet - so yes like Artem I am now concerned about people being dropped because I have seen it. Does that mean I'm new and young? I'm 44 and been climbing on gear since 2001. But I've noticed standards at the gym and outside falling in an appalling ways the past 10 or so years.

I've belayed Artem outside on 5-11 and 5-12 sport and 5-10 trad, and he's' belayed me on my leads. He knows how to fall on lead, how to instruct a belayer, etc. I.e. not a new climber and probably climbs harder than you, reading this. Outside. On gear. Go ahead and say that Artem is the red flag,   - from a distance you are totally logically correct to make that inference, but you're also dead wrong. Remember that the next time you lay into somebody you don't even know. Are you really trying to help, or just knock someone down?

Artem is not being piled on because people think he is bad at climbing. They are doing it because his experience with bely errors is obvious a statistical outlier.  This by itself is still not the issue. It doesn't even say he is a bad belay or that he himself is using bad judgment. However it does say that something is odd and deserves a closer look. That is what red flag means.  It doesn't even mean something is wrong necessarily. Where he gets multiple people piling on is in his inability to take feed back. 

Maybe if enough people provide the same feed back he will stop and think I should take a closer look. Then again maybe he will continue to say no I know everything cause I am 25 and have vast experience.

Only 1 of the 4 incidents even involved him.  I don't see where he says he was involved in 4 incidents in 5 years. Man this is like arguing with the GOP. 

bryans wrote: Only 1 of the 4 incidents even involved him.  I don't see where he says he was involved in 4 incidents in 5 years. Man this is like arguing with the GOP. 

He wrote:

Two friends were lowered off of the ends their ropes, one friend dropped by her belayer on lead, and I was dropped by an inattentive lead belayer...

We're talking about him, his friends/partners, their collective judgement, and his attitude to criticism. 4 incidents in 5 years that he was either directly involved in (one) or his partners were. In 45 years of climbing, my partners and I, collectively, have been involved in zero incidents of this type. That's why we're saying his case is a statistical outlier and that something is out of the ordinary and hence, a red flag.

John Reeve wrote:

I remember that interaction, cause I've been on-and-off thinking about aid climbing in Zion.

What you wrote that I thought was kind of a bit of "toxic nonsense" was "I think it's the people who can't climb harder than X grade but still want to do the route that would have an opinion like that."

Which admittedly cut a little close to home for me LOL.  Yeah, I don't climb 5.12 trad and yeah, I would like to do a wall.  And yeah, you have a point.  But yeah, it's a shitty way to express that point.  And yeah, you're probably right about the wear on the rock, but, yeah, I still dunno if I think it matters to me personally.

FWIW, I -also- had the same reaction as other folks who think that you have a kind of oddly large number of accidents happening near you.

I wouldn't mention this, but I am -also- concerned with "toxicity" in these forums and assume that you're interested in feedback so we can all. do our part in not being shitty to one another.

To the OP: I don't think that accidents are totally avoidable, but the good advice that we should figure out what went wrong and then move on with our lives is the only real answer to anything.  Because really, this sport should not be that dangerous even if you're getting into serious mileage.

As to the original topic... I keep readin the title "Just watched someone get [name] dropped", and I keep thinking well, duh, that happens all the time.  Folks love to spray about famous people they know.  I personally stood next to Marcus Garcia (yeah, the excellent climber) at his gym yesterday.  So, like, the V1s that I flail on, clearly that's not as important as the fact I was standing next to a person who can send 5.14.  I've never been dropped in that gym or even seen anyone get dropped.  So, super safe.  I dunno if it's quality of staff or the fact it's a bouldering gym though.

How would you drop someone in a bouldering gym? 

Marc801 C wrote:

He wrote:

We're talking about him, his friends/partners, their collective judgement, and his attitude to criticism. 4 incidents in 5 years that he was either directly involved in (one) or his partners were. In 45 years of climbing, my partners and I, collectively, have been involved in zero incidents of this type. That's why we're saying his case is a statistical outlier and that something is out of the ordinary and hence, a red flag.

Well I had a partner break his leg twice. Separate incidents. Lead falls. Each time a piece pulled on him. His fault. Bad placements, all involved agreed. Neither time was I belaying. Does that somehow reflect on me? 

Guyzzzz. Please we are only on page 3. This is page 7+ material. sheesh

Gumby the White wrote: Guyzzzz. Please we are only on page 3. This is page 7+ material. sheesh

You should make more filler dad jokes

bryans wrote:

Well I had a partner break his leg twice. Separate incidents. Lead falls. Each time a piece pulled on him. His fault. Bad placements, all involved agreed. Neither time was I belaying. Does that somehow reflect on me? 

"The principle difference between heaven and hell is the company you keep there."

            -Tradiban

Tradiban wrote:

"The principle difference between heaven and hell is the company you keep there."

            -Tradiban

It's "principal" you dork.

bryans wrote:

Well I had a partner break his leg twice. Separate incidents. Lead falls. Each time a piece pulled on him. His fault. Bad placements, all involved agreed. Neither time was I belaying. Does that somehow reflect on me? 

Totally false equivalence for the most part. You're comparing an understood risk of trad climbing with the completely unacceptable act of dropping someone.

But in general, whomever you choose to climb with does indeed reflect on you, specifically your judgement. Maybe your partner shouldn't be climbing trad? But you also neglected to say whether he had good placements available along with a bunch of other details that would dilute your argument.

Magpie79 wrote:

How would you drop someone in a bouldering gym? 

That's just a filler dad joke.

I got dropped about 8 feet to the ground last autumn by a climbing “athlete” she sure looks good in her head shots though...

bryans wrote:

It's "principal" you dork.

Lol, you are reading my quote too simplistically. If I meant the "main difference" I would have said so. 

A very Freudian misinterpretation, I must say. 

Is this going to boil down to another one of those "inexperienced climbers shouldn't let their inexperienced climber friend belay with a Gri Gri" thread?

I know the ending to this one. I can provide the spoiler if anyone would like.

Getting dropped is not good, and completely inexcusable. Whether an out of control lowering, a lapse in focus while your partner is being a hang dog to get the pump out, or whatnot, it is laziness and a lack of focus. It can result in death.

Too many new glamour cowboys don't realize they're playing with fire and treat their climbing adventures as though they are going to Putt Putt, or some such. I'm not calling anyone out, just describing what I've seen and dealt with. It happens to new scuba divers too, so it has nothing to do with the element you're playing in. It is all in the mindset. 

Every time you go outside or to the gym, your overall goal should be getting back to the car, your camp, home! If this means being humble in front of your friends and peers, so be it. You want to show off, be a big dadass, pretend "I got this", you're going to live with the consequences that your partner might not get a chance to. If someone gives you gruff and is difficult when you say you need to back off, reevaluate, or ask to be shown/instructed the correct way again... don't climb with them if it makes you uncomfortable. Your partner should be concerned with your wellbeing just as much as you are to theirs.

The only thing I can say to the OP's topic is to learn and understand how and why things went wrong and caused this traumatic event you witnessed. You can build from it, throw the whole thing away and give it up, or proceed in an uneducated manner that can lead to danger.

Tradiban wrote:

Lol, you are reading my quote ..

No - people are reading quotes you rip off and sign your name to.

Let's talk about the real issue here, MP is so damn boring. Tradiban 2020

climber pat wrote:

3) belayer threads grigri backwards

4) using rope that is too skinny