Photographing Moonlight Buttress

Hey MP,

I wrote a blog about recently photographing a Moonlight Buttress free attempt. Figured I'd share it here as well since I outline my big wall systems for photography. Take a look if you're interested.

​https://www.willmckayphotography.com/blog/2019/11/19/photographing-moonlight-buttress?fbclid=IwAR1eNagOPJTO29e8s31kmE4-46Le0nKz4_z9gGHXc_Ga_tcCnKq4z1-meSQ​​​

Awesome blog post! 

Thanks for sharing Will, nice shots.

Holy crap. These may be some of the best shots of moonlight buttress ever taken. In the saturated world of climbing photography, these really capture the essence of what it’s all about

Those are some really great photos! 

So as professional photographer did you get a commercial use permit from the Zion National Park?

Nice work man! Those are fantastic shots!

Allen Sanderson wrote: So as professional photographer did you get a commercial use permit from the Zion National Park?

Hey Allen,

So for this I did not get one because there was not  an official commercial shoot occurring. As in there wasn’t a direct client at hand & there were not previously drawn up intentions to create branded material for a 3rd party.
Zion & the NPS state that a still photographer needs a permit if..
Still photographers require a permit only when:

1. the activity takes place at location(s) where or when members of the public are generally not allowed; or
2. the activity uses model(s), sets(s), or prop(s) that are not a part of the location's natural or cultural resources or administrative facilities;
3. park would incur additional administrative costs to monitor the activity.
It’s a little bit of a grey area since I had thought about selling the images in the future but that would be a similar situation to somebody selling images later on to a publication. That would make editorial and news also require a permit, which is not required. 
Kind of up to interpretation, but that’s what I went with. 

Allen Sanderson wrote: So as professional photographer did you get a commercial use permit from the Zion National Park?

https://www.nps.gov/inde/planyourvisit/permits-for-filming-and-photography.htm

https://www.blm.gov/or/regulations/files/pl-106-206.pdf

Does he need one? Honestly, I can't decide if climbers are models or a "natural or cultural resource". Or maybe they're neither?

Edit to say: what Will said

Stunning photos, thanks for sharing!

SteveZ wrote:

https://www.nps.gov/inde/planyourvisit/permits-for-filming-and-photography.htm

https://www.blm.gov/or/regulations/files/pl-106-206.pdf

Does he need one? Honestly, I can't decide if climbers are models or a "natural or cultural resource". Or maybe they're neither?

Edit to say: what Will said

With regards to the climbers, I’d categorize them as the same as other tourists recreating in the park. Especially since they’d still have climbed the route whether I was there or not.

SteveZ is a natural and cultural resource.  Not sure about any of the rest of you.  

Hey Will that is a really cool blog post and super informative to me as a noob photog. Even some talk of what your thoughts were in regards to use of the images. I have a question regarding post work. How much out of camera work did you do on those shots? Are you slapping a preset on them or individually edited? Amazing stuff!

Jon Hillis wrote: Hey Will that is a really cool blog post and super informative to me as a noob photog. Even some talk of what your thoughts were in regards to use of the images. I have a question regarding post work. How much out of camera work did you do on those shots? Are you slapping a preset on them or individually edited? Amazing stuff!

Hey Jon,

I’m glad you got a bunch out of it, I was always looking for an article like this but never could really find one.
Regarding post work, I don’t do a bunch in terms of photo adjustments. When I’m importing images, I basically toss out all photos that are 2 stars or lower (out of focus, missed action, bad light, bad composition). This allows me to edit significantly less. In Lightroom i’ll typically edit an image that has similar settings to others (such as a redpoint go on a pitch) where I’m not changing anything in camera during that series. I’ll copy & paste that present to the others in that series and work from there. There will always be expections where there is a single unique image that I’ll take extra time on. However I get more specific when I rate all photos in LR from 3-5 stars. I then edit all the five stars individually, making certain tweaks to the photo. I’ll do this with about half of the 4 stars too.
This allows a massive reduction in what I’m editing & how much of it I’m doing. With this particular shoot, I shot around 1200 images over two days. I scrapped about 1000 of those (2 stars & below) and ended up with 207 three + stars. Of those I probably had 15-20 four stars & 2-3 five stars.
That’s a bit more than what ya asked for but I’m at a gas station between Zion & the Creek so I’ve got some time to kill.

When I visited Zion a couple years ago I was in awe of Moonlight Buttress and really wanted to climb it, aid or free. Seeing your pictures now will has reignited that Stoke within me! Thanks for sharing, there amazing pictures of your friends!!  

Will McKay wrote:

Hey Jon,

I’m glad you got a bunch out of it, I was always looking for an article like this but never could really find one.
Regarding post work, I don’t do a bunch in terms of photo adjustments. When I’m importing images, I basically toss out all photos that are 2 stars or lower (out of focus, missed action, bad light, bad composition). This allows me to edit significantly less. In Lightroom i’ll typically edit an image that has similar settings to others (such as a redpoint go on a pitch) where I’m not changing anything in camera during that series. I’ll copy & paste that present to the others in that series and work from there. There will always be expections where there is a single unique image that I’ll take extra time on. However I get more specific when I rate all photos in LR from 3-5 stars. I then edit all the five stars individually, making certain tweaks to the photo. I’ll do this with about half of the 4 stars too.
This allows a massive reduction in what I’m editing & how much of it I’m doing. With this particular shoot, I shot around 1200 images over two days. I scrapped about 1000 of those (2 stars & below) and ended up with 207 three + stars. Of those I probably had 15-20 four stars & 2-3 five stars.
That’s a bit more than what ya asked for but I’m at a gas station between Zion & the Creek so I’ve got some time to kill.

WOW! Thanks for the workflow! I always struggle with cutting down my images after a big shoot... I have a backlog of almost 2000 pictures right now... RIP. 

Seriously helpful stuff.

chris tregge wrote: SteveZ is a natural and cultural resource.  Not sure about any of the rest of you.  

Ha, same to you good sir. 

Jon Hillis wrote:

WOW! Thanks for the workflow! I always struggle with cutting down my images after a big shoot... I have a backlog of almost 2000 pictures right now... RIP. 

Seriously helpful stuff.

No worries man. Workflow is the time killer or time maker.

Commercial photographer goes to zion to shoot climbers on moonlight buttress.

Photographer uses the photos to drive traffic to his website.

Photographer has climbers specifically wear patagonia clothing in anticipation of selling his work to the company in the future.

Photographer is unsure he needs a permit, but doesn't bother contacting the park to see what they say (the # is 215-597-9205).

As far as I can tell, photographer saves about a $75 flat fee +$50/day in costs.

Will McKay wrote:
Still photographers require a permit only when:

1. the activity takes place at location(s) where or when members of the public are generally not allowed; or
2. the activity uses model(s), sets(s), or prop(s) that are not a part of the location's natural or cultural resources or administrative facilities;
3. park would incur additional administrative costs to monitor the activity.

From the following website ( nps.gov/inde/planyourvisit/…), it looks like your list left out two other scenarios: 

• it uses equipment that requires mechanical transport
• it uses equipment that requires an external power source other than a battery pack

Not sure if setting up fixed lines for photography falls under the first category.

best,
matt

mpech wrote: Commercial photographer goes to zion to shoot climbers on moonlight buttress.

Photographer uses the photos to drive traffic to his website.

Photographer has climbers specifically wear patagonia clothing in anticipation of selling his work to the company in the future.

Photographer is unsure he needs a permit, but doesn't bother contacting the park to see what they say (the # is 215-597-9205).

As far as I can tell, photographer saves about a $75 flat fee +$50/day in costs.

Dude why are you so ticked off about this?

I basically try to sell photography from every trip I do. I don't get a permit for it ever because I would be taking pictures anyway even if I was not selling. But since I do know I can make some money I def style the pictures a little bit.

Now if I was to do a full wedding shoot or shoot a commercial or something then yes you would need a permit.