The Nose - reasons why (out of all the walls out there) it's one of the safer (better anchors, well-traveled) and perfect routes to do in the valley, in terms of walls of that size?

EDIT: I know some people will probably say, you should have thought about this before being in this relationship, yada yada yada. But i love my wife and she is a very reasonable person, she just needs education.

Have done a couple small big walls: S Face of Washington Column & West Face of Leaning Tower (but bailed because of a bad storm) before getting married and I'm planning to do the Nose in the next couple years. My wife (not a climber) doesn't fully understand climbing logistics and safety in the same way that I do, and is a bit nervous about me doing it. She knows I would be safe, but she's worried about the uncontrollable things (i.e. rockfall, etc.). I've tried to explain it, but it's hard without a first hand understanding. How would you explain to someone who doesn't climb that the Nose is a fantastic big wall and can be done in a very slow and safe approach if needed.

Yer Gonna Die

My great-grandfather once told me “nothing is dangerous if you know what you’re doing”. He was a pilot in WW2.

The Nose is heavily traveled, well bolted where it needs to be, has good bivy ledges and is very protectable. That said, stuff happens and there's always objective hazard on a big climb so don't fool yourself or your wife that everything is under your control but instead acknowledge that the risks are reasonable and it gets climbed daily for a couple of hundred days a year without incident. I'd also suggest a couple more walls in addition to the South Face of the Column (did you haul to the top or just haul to Dinner Ledge?) and part of the Leaning Tower.  Get your systems, especially belay exchanges, fixing the jug line, hauling, re-racking while you clean, etc., dialed before attempting the Nose as systems stuff, wasted time on belay exchanges, difficulty with things like haul bag lower outs and following pendulums and general systems problems turns as many parties back as the climbing itself. The Prow is a good wall that's a whole lot more real than the South Face of Washington's Column but still a very reasonable wall mostly on clean aid and is a good place to dial in your big wall systems. Walls down in Zion are also great for dialing in your systems.

It's not that good as a "slow" wall, because of all the low angle hauling until the Great Roof.
(Slow means more food/water and a heavy haul bag, right?)
And being slow actually makes things less safe, because you have a wider window for bad weather.
It's a route to do because of the good climbing, and accessible/enjoyable because of the lighter haul bag with no portaledge.
You still have to be a good climber and have a good partner to succeed on it.
It's not inherently safer than other well traveled El Cap routes like Lurking Fear, Salathe', and Zodiac.

What your wife calls "uncontrollable" things like rockfall are usually called "objective risks" in climbing.
Rockfall, storms, avalanches.  It's really only storms that fit this on El Cap, unless you are climbing right of Zodiac (then it's rockfall, too).
Since you live fairly close, you can simply choose a time when the weather forecast is very stable.  May is usually very nice, with lots of daylight, too.

Seems like Staph Infection is a high likelyhood on the Nose

Zach...explain to your wife that you're odds of injury and/or death are greater when driving the freeways of San Jose then climbing the Nose.

how can somebody "know you will be safe" climbing the nose?  short answer, they can't.  i think that coming to terms with that is the first step.

Thanks for all the feedback and comments (repartee included haha!).

I probably should've clarified that my wife does have a slight understanding of how the systems work, but she sees things in the news about Jason Wells and Tim Klein (RIP) falling to their deaths. Although, it's assumed something happened in their situation while simul-climbing and I've assured her my partner and I wouldn't be doing anything close to that, but stories like that still feeds into the reasons why she's uncomfortable.

Ben - interesting you say that Ben, I ride a motorcycle over hwy 17 every day and I've told her i'm much more likely to die going to work than on the Nose. I think in her mind she would clarify this as a "necessary risk", and climbing to her is an "unnecessary risk".

Dave - Great feedback! Objective hazards are obviously outside our control, but acknowledging them in light of the amount of times it gets climbed without incident each year is important to note. For the Column we hauled to the top. I absolutely agree that things need to get more dialed in before an attempt on the Nose. I'm 28 now and my partner is 38. He wants to do it before he's 40, but we were planning on doing a couple smaller walls this next year. Thanks for the suggestion about the Prow and Zion. I'd love to go out there. Any recommendations on routes in Zion to do that are good for those systems?

Clint - Good thoughts about it being a wall you could do slowly. Very helpful thoughts a tips as it relates to pacing yourself moderately because of potential for bad weather. I absolutely agree that needing to be a good climber and have a good partner are important to our success is vital. To your point about other routes? Lurking Fear, Salathe and Zodiac, would you say those are "safer"? I really appreciate all the thoughts and comments about objective risks. What are your thoughts on the boot flake? Does that pose a big risk for climbers?

Based on peoples responses, it seems the logic and rationale could be as follows:
1) Odds of injury and death are greater when driving to work everyday.
2) The nose is well traveled, well bolted where necessary and is very protectable. Although, we won't lie to ourselves that something could happen (objective hazard), acknowledge the risks are reasonable and it gets climbed daily for a few hundred days a year without incident. Close proximity to YOSAR.
3) Good climbing. Accessible and enjoyable because of a lighter haul bag and no portaledge.
4) Even after all the prep and time spent training for this, we may get turned around because of the climbing or because of our speed/lack thereof.

slim wrote: how can somebody "know you will be safe" climbing the nose?  short answer, they can't.  i think that coming to terms with that is the first step.

great point, I'm wondering if I used the wrong wording. I know "safe" is relative and there are tons of things outside our control, but mitigating certain risks and coming to terms with what the risks are could help with the process.

So I just did The Nose last weekend for the first time. My wife is a climber, but has no interest in big walling, and she, too, was concerned about safety, given recent rockfall events and the like. What helped was when I actually sat down and explained in very specific detail how all the big wall systems worked, and also went through a topo with her, and she understood more what the climbing was like. She said that made her feel better.

Also, I survived, so that helped.

Alec Orenstein wrote: So I just did The Nose last weekend for the first time. My wife is a climber, but has no interest in big walling, and she, too, was concerned about safety, given recent rockfall events and the like. What helped was when I actually sat down and explained in very specific detail how all the big wall systems worked, and also went through a topo with her, and she understood more what the climbing was like. She said that made her feel better.

Also, I survived, so that helped.

Congrats Alec! Nice work. This is great feedback. I'll make this #5 on the list I posted above. I bet that was very eye opening for her and helpful to put things in perspective. Maybe you could explain it to my wife haha? 

And surviving definitely helped your case. I'd love to talk with you about the climb and how it went!

Zach Shull wrote: Any recommendations on routes in Zion to do that are good for those systems?

Just remember that the softer rock in Zion can make aid pieces a lot sketchier than a similar grade on Yosemite granite.

Lurking Fear, Salathe and Zodiac, would you say those are "safer"?

How are you defining "safer"? All of them have spots where a fall would be a really, really bad idea.

Zach Shull wrote: 
 I ride a motorcycle over hwy 17 every day.

That is F-ing insane. You would have to climb the Nose a hundred times before the cumulative risk balanced out. EDIT: I'm not sure it ever would. 17 is a deathtrap.

I say that as someone who's done the Nose twice and used to commute on a motorcycle over the Bay Bridge daily until I decided it was too dangerous and quit.

Marc801 C wrote: Just remember that the softer rock in Zion can make aid pieces a lot sketchier than a similar grade on Yosemite granite.

How are you defining "safer"? All of them have spots where a fall would be a really, really bad idea.

Great points. I've never climbed in Zion but heard that is a real issue.

When my wife uses the word safe she equates it to not dying. I've spoken with her multiple times about how I, too, don't want to die and being "safe" on the wall is having certain rules and processes for doing things, how anchors are build, fundamental climbing techniques being carried out, and trying to mitigate any room for errors. Yes, I was responding to another comment about the nose not being inherently safer, but i do agree that word needed definition. 

You're not going to convince her, regardless of the evidence.

Nkane 1 wrote:

That is F-ing insane. You would have to climb the Nose a hundred times before the cumulative risk balanced out. EDIT: I'm not sure it ever would. 17 is a deathtrap.

I say that as someone who's done the Nose twice and used to commute on a motorcycle over the Bay Bridge daily until I decided it was too dangerous and quit.

Yeah it is. I have been doing it for 2.5 years now and i've seen my fair share of gnarly situations. I think you're right that it would take an insane amount of times up the nose for it to balance out. I wonder how i can communicate that point well to her.

That's awesome you've done it twice! Would love to hear about your experience. About the bike - i've just starting thinking i should quit. 

a d wrote: You're not going to convince her, regardless of the evidence.

See, I don't know - I've talked through other things before and she's come around.. she may on this too!

Zach Shull wrote:

Yeah it is. I have been doing it for 2.5 years now and i've seen my fair share of gnarly situations. I think you're right that it would take an insane amount of times up the nose for it to balance out. I wonder how i can communicate that point well to her.

That's awesome you've done it twice! Would love to hear about your experience. About the bike - i've just starting thinking i should quit. 

I still ride, I just don't use the bike as my standard commute anymore. I also moved closer to work, which helped make that choice easy. But towards the end of my Bay Bridge days, I realized that even with all of my mitigations (not a drop of alcohol, never in the rain, ATGATT, maintaining the bike, being over 30), the cumulative exposure to risk involved in that commute was unacceptable. If I kept doing that ride every day for decades, the question would be not if, but when. 

On a per-minute basis, I think being on the Nose (in good weather, in a team that understands the systems) is safer than being on a bike on CA-17. So I don't think the curves ever cross: if your wife is comfortable with your commute, in my mind, she should welcome your Nose adventure as a less-risky three-day break when she could worry less.

As a corollary, maybe she should worry about your commute more!

All that said, I don't know your commute or your skills - maybe you're going off-peak hours and you're just a better rider than me?

Zach Shull wrote: ... Any recommendations on routes in Zion to do that are good for those systems?...

- Touchstone (good mix of free climbing and easy aid including the stellar first pitch ladder of desert bolts that will make you high step which is good training all by itself)

- Prodigal Son (a bit more interesting aid, but rarely more than a body length or so from a drilled baby angle desert bolt)

- Spaceshot

- Moonlight Buttress

a d wrote: You're not going to convince her, regardless of the evidence.

This is the correct answer.  You're falling into a classic Male-Female miscommunication trap.  Logic and evidence are not what she's concerned about, otherwise it wouldn't be an issue (or the issue would be worded differently).  This is about her feelings.  For the same reason I'm worried about my wife flying for work -- even though my logical side knows it's objectively safer.

I don't really have an answer, as my wife feels the same way.  I did Fly Boys last weekend (5.9 sport multipitch) and she was worried even though it's the safest thing I've done this season.  I try to make it a point to contact her with updates when possible, which helps.

If you want to double down on the logic and reasoning, you might mention that the Nose is in the jurisdiction of the best high angle SAR team on earth, with dozens of other climbers within shouting distance at any given time.