Rate my planned first trad rack

Wild Country Superlight Offset Rocks. They come in a set. 

Hexes and Stoppers.
That's all you need!

Honestly ditch everything else and just get doubles of cams 0.3 -3. As a new climber trusting anything else but cams is hard and you’ll always want to being more cams than the route calls for just to put you at ease. Don’t forget about alpine draws and rope drag, something new climbers don’t take into consideration.

Hexes!  Big, slung hexes. 

Akash Rama wrote:  As a new climber trusting anything else but cams is hard 

that's absurd.

Jeremiah Senkpiel wrote: So, I've started leading (5.6ish) on other people's gear and it is a lot of fun! I think I'm hooked, so I'm looking to get my own rack over the winter, haha.
(I'm in Squamish and most of the easy routes are trad... so yeah I took my first lead fall on gear that I placed.)

Also, the mechanics of gear is quite interesting to me, and I'm willing to go a bit out fo the norm for something that may end up better in practice.
Please don't be dismissive just because some of my choices are a bit more off the beaten path. :)

Here's the tl;dr of my idea, with full details below:

- DMM Wallnuts: 1-11
- Camp Evo Tricams: .25, .5, 1, 1.5
- BD C4s: 1, 2, 3
- BD Z4s (on release): .3, .4, .5, .75
- Camp Ball Nuts: 2, 3, 4, 5
- Kong Gipsy: 2 (Yeah probably not)
- (Rack Carabiners): Camp Dyons

Total cost is like $~1200 Cad before tax

Unusual, I know. I often mix things like this to get what I like the best instead of sticking to one manufacturer.

I understand some of that stuff has a learning curve, which to be frank, kinda excites me.

EDIT: reply to many of the common comments, e.g. nut tool, draws, offsets, etc:
https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/118017939/rate-my-planned-first-trad-rack?page=2#ForumMessage-118031778


DMM Wallnuts: 1-11

So far I quite fancy placing nuts where I can, and have used the larger size BD's the most.
DMM seems to have more range, and nuts with a bit more geometric "texture".

Camp Evo Tricams: .25, .5, 1, 1.5

A less expensive backup to other gear, plus they seem interesting and I'd really like to learn to be able to use them well.
I hear that everyone raves about .5 pinks.

Seems silly to me to get anything larger than the set though, for anything that would fit a #1 cam I just don't see the point.

BD C4s: 1, 2, 3

I like the way BD's feel, and the 2019 ones just got lighter. Good old reliable for these. Other gear should explain why only these sizes.

 BD Z4s (on release): .3, .4, .5, .75

I know Z4s aren't on the market yet, but it seems they should be better than the C4s / X4s for the comparable size range in every conceivable way.
Barely more expensive than C4s too if what we've heard about pricing is right.

I've done a bunch of research and it seems like people have damaged X4 cam lobes, probably with less-than-great placements.
Honestly I'm trying to avoid microcams due to relative fragility & hold power, hence the ball nuts in the list. That being said, Z4s allegedly have higher stress ratings than X4s or C3s.

I'm sure totems would have more holding power in odd situations, but they cost quite a bit more, don't feel as good as BDs in the hand, aren't as flexible as Z4s should be, don't go as small.
If I ever go for doubling up stuff though, I think I'll look at totems. I hope by that time totem makes dual-axle cams, at least for their mid-larger sized cams.

Camp Ball Nuts: 2, 3, 4, 5

Seems like people either love these or hate these. I'm willing to put some time and energy into learning them.

To me, these seem like a very reasonable alternative to microcams, with likely better holding and strength characteristics for the materials we have.
Also they go much smaller, thinner, and are still rated for hefty falls.
(Sure if we had a near-infinitely strong material cams would always be better, but even then eventually they would be impossible to place properly without assistance!)

I mostly climb on granite, which should dig into the copper ball head just fine.
Hopefully no one hates me for having to clean my first couple dozen sets of these...

Kong Gipsy: 2 (Yeah probably not)

Roughly covers cam sizes 4 & 5. Or I could ditch the #3 C4 and get a #1 of these too.

I can't find very much information on these, but I found out they exist, and they seem like a potentially better alternative to big cams.
They seem to be only available in Europe but I'm hoping some family over there can get ahold of them for me.

They are strength rated better, have a much wider range, and are lighter than the comparable cam sizes.
My main present concern is if they lack the ability to walk/reorient.

If anyone here has any extra info on these, that would be helpful. I'm probably going to get the #2 or #1 to give it a try regardless though.

(Rack Carabiners): Camp Dyons

These seem to be the non-catching wiregate carabiners I can find which come in rack packs. Thought I'd list it here for fun.

---

Let me know what you folks think!
Would you buy a rack like this if you started anew?
Would you be interested and/or comfortable climbing with someone with this kind of rack?
:D

p.s. hope this is the right subforum lol

Ok, you've heard the rest now hear from the best.

Get doubles C4 to #3, a #4 and a #5 plus a set of nuts. And various carabiners, plus slings. Dump the ballnuts and Kong junk. Which nuts doesn't really matter, offsets are bomb but get stuck more easily.

It just so happens I have all these items for you at a deep discount. Seriously, I have a full rack for ya I will sell cheap. PM me.

Tradiban wrote:

Ok, you've heard the rest now hear from the best.

Get doubles C4 to #3, a #4 and a #5 plus a set of nuts. And various carabiners, plus slings. Dump the ballnuts and Kong junk. Which nuts doesn't really matter, offsets are bomb but get stuck more easily.

It just so happens I have all these items for you at a deep discount. Seriously, I have a full rack for ya I will sell cheap. PM me.

Surely it's all out of date by now, it's a loooong time since you actually climbed anything ....

Akash Rama wrote:  As a new climber trusting anything else but cams is hard

To each his/her own, but I'd trust a good stopper over a cam anyday...

Buy used gear instead of new. You can get a used rack that's just as useful for much less than you are planning to spend. Spend the difference on everything else you need to go climbing: gas for your car, camp sites, hotel rooms, plane tickets, etc.

Don't worry about minor things. For example, snaggy notched biners. Are ultralight notchless wiregates better? Yes, of course - way better... but it doesn't really matter that much. I've never thought "that climb would have been great, but those snaggy biners ruined it!". Unless you are redpointing at your limit, it will not matter. Remember that you can always upgrade later if you decide it's worth it. Right now, buy some decent, cheap stuff and don't worry so much about the little details of every piece.

WAIT, what the hell everyone??  Not a single post of the most awesome and complete rack???

Black Totems and Pink tricams, full rack of em.

Jim Titt wrote:

Surely it's all out of date by now, it's a loooong time since you actually climbed anything ....

Somebody call the fire department! SICK BURN!!!!!!

Alternatively, if you decide trad isn't for you, just sell your rack (as a whole 'beginner rack').

It just so happens I have all these items for you at a deep discount. Seriously, I have a full rack for ya I will sell cheap. PM me.

Trad's not for everyone.

(just kidding bro...)

Akash Rama wrote:  As a new climber trusting anything else but cams is hard and you’ll always want to being more cams than the route calls for just to put you at ease. 

Have you ever used nuts?

I wouldn't buy the ballnutz, tricams or the Kong Gypsy.  Get a single-to-double rack of BD C4 from .3-3, a single #4 a rack of nuts and 12-16 alpine draws, and you will be able to lead almost any moderate multipitch in north america.

I think a 60M rope is better to begin with since most routes and descents use and are set-up for 60M. Linking pitches, or stretching/customizing rappels and lowers is not for beginners. They should get used to what a 60M pitch and 30M rappel looks like. IMO

The 70 is a bit bulky in the backpack but there are certainly a selection of good moderate pitches in the area, particularly newer stuff, that pushes 30 meters. I'm glad so far that I got the 70.

In hindsight if I knew I would be doing sport/trad when I got it I probably would have gone all in on a mammut infinity but alas I have 9.8mm rope. It's not the heaviest but not exactly the lightest either.

DMM Peenuts

Don't these have the same issue as the other smaller nuts in that it'l mostly be more advanced routes where they are the go-to?

Wild Country Superlight Offset Rocks. They come in a set.

These are hands down the best nuts I’ve used ever. And they weigh half as much. Plenty strong. Once you find yourself on harder routes (probably 5.11 and up) you’ll want micro nuts as well. Get the DMM offset brass. I know this is into page 4 so you might not read this but there’s my two cents

Those do look the most in-between a regular nut and a full-on offset (and are thin like the 2020 dmm halfnuts)... Although I wonder if full on offsets wouldn't be more stable in flares?

Also, nah, I'm still reading! Why would I pass up advice from an experienced collective?? :D

Honestly ditch everything else and just get doubles of cams 0.3 -3. As a new climber trusting anything else but cams is hard (...)

Uhhh, what? I'd much rather place a nut if I can. If nothing else, it's satisfying and feels great. But they are also super bomber.

Spend the difference on everything else you need to go climbing: gas for your car, camp sites, hotel rooms, plane tickets, etc.

I literally live in the climbing capital of Canada...

Black Totems and Pink tricams, full rack of em.

ok folks my plan is settled, this comment won

Also like, I never see people say to _not_ get totems, so they must really be that good. I still thought they were awkward in the hand but I'm considering them more. They are definitely pricey tho.

Does anyone know if totems are expensive to get re-slung once that is necessary? (Edit: I guess that probably isn't worth asking at this point but... oh well.)

This is my new favorite thread

In under 24 hours we’re back to link cams, make sure to get WC and not BD, ubiquitous pink tricam and black totem mentions, suggestion of tricams and ball nutz for a starter rack at Squamish, i didn’t read the thread but here’s my take, All the classics   

there is a pretty consistent pattern on feedback for a question like this. It groups as roughly; sport climbers who occasionally trad, trad climbers under 100 trad pitches in, 100+, 200+, 300+, etc. the feedback varies greatly in the first couple of groupings, and then consolidates as you go up. Go figure.

Lets be honest, totems are just too steampunk

Jeremiah Senkpiel wrote: Ehh, I'm not buying BD ULs. I'd rather have something that will last timewise. ULs are only rated for what, 3-5 years? I can deal with dragging that little bit of extra weight up.

tl;dr: I also considered the durability factor when purchasing my set of ultralights 3 years ago, and durability has not been an issue for me with the ultralights after significant use.

Speaking from experience I would strongly urge you not to write off the ultralights because they "won't last as long." There is no official "rating" for how long they will last because this is entirely dependent on how much they are used and how well they are cared for (e.g. keeping them clean, storing away from sunlight, and frequent inspections). I have owned a set of ultralights since they were first released 3 years ago and I use them every time I go climbing (2-3 days per week 9 months of the year). They have held up just as well as my non-ultralight C4s with an equivalent amount of use. The only part of any cam that is subject to degradation from normal use is the sling, which I have found is just as durable on the ultralight as on the non-ultralight, and can easily be replaced by the manufacturer. I will get them re-slung after 5 years (or sooner if the sling shows signs of wear), just as I would with any other cam, whether the sling is nylon or dyneema. As for the dyneema vs. cable stem, the dyneema stem of the ultralights is not only protected from abrasion but also from sunlight by its housing, just like the cable stem of a non-ultralight is protected by its housing. If the housing were damaged I would retire the cam, regardless of whether the stem is dyneema or cable. This has not happened after significant use on any of my ultralights, non-ultralights, or any other of my cams for that matter, which I believe is a testament to their durability.

The price comparison is a different story, as ultralights are significantly more expensive, and the new generation of non-ultralight C4s has narrowed the margin of weight difference. This is definitely a valid reason to write off the ultralights if you're trying to save $. Consider the price difference, consider that they will last just as long, and consider that how long they last is a direct result of how much you use them and how well you take care of them.

Again, this has been my experience. If anyone has had durability issues with the ultralights with normal use (i.e. free climbing, taking some normal-sized falls, keeping the cams clean), I'd love to hear about it

Jack Taylor wrote: tl;dr: I also considered the durability factor when purchasing my set of ultralights 3 years ago, and durability has not been an issue for me with the ultralights after significant use.

Speaking from experience I would strongly urge you not to write off the ultralights because they "won't last as long." There is no official "rating" for how long they will last because this is entirely dependent on how much they are used and how well they are cared for (e.g. keeping them clean, storing away from sunlight, and frequent inspections). I have owned a set of ultralights since they were first released 3 years ago and I use them every time I go climbing (2-3 days per week 9 months of the year). They have held up just as well as my non-ultralight C4s with an equivalent amount of use. The only part of any cam that is subject to degradation from normal use is the sling, which I have found is just as durable on the ultralight as on the non-ultralight, and can easily be replaced by the manufacturer. I will get them re-slung after 5 years (or sooner if the sling shows signs of wear), just as I would with any other cam, whether the sling is nylon or dyneema. As for the dyneema vs. cable stem, the dyneema stem of the ultralights is not only protected from abrasion but also from sunlight by its housing, just like the cable stem of a non-ultralight is protected by its housing. If the housing were damaged I would retire the cam, regardless of whether the stem is dyneema or cable. This has not happened after significant use on any of my ultralights, non-ultralights, or any other of my cams for that matter, which I believe is a testament to their durability.
The price comparison is a different story, as ultralights are significantly more expensive, and the new generation of non-ultralight C4s has narrowed the margin of weight difference. This is definitely a valid reason to write off the ultralights if you're trying to save $. Consider the price difference, consider that they will last just as long, and consider that how long they last is a direct result of how much you use them and how well you take care of them.

Again, this has been my experience. If anyone has had durability issues with the ultralights with normal use (i.e. free climbing, taking some normal-sized falls, keeping the cams clean), I'd love to hear about it

Hey dude! If your tick list on here is accurate, I think it may just be that you aren't putting heaps of mileage on them, coupled with the fact you are taking good care of them. I've borrowed and shared a few #2-#4 BD UL's, particularly the #4s across a few climbing buddies. I would guess collectively those UL cams had probably been on at least 100-200 pitches in a year and would regularly need to be replaced, which I have never seen or heard of with WC, DMM, BD, Metolius, or Totems. Also anecdotally, talking to folks who regularly climb more than 100+ trad pitches per year, I've heard similar. When you get into the details of the weight savings (negligible) and the cost differences (not negligible), coupled with the option of new lighter "not UL" C4s you mentioned, it just really doesn't seem worth it. Especially when we are talking about someone getting their first rack and primarily climbing at Squamish. Not to mention, for tips to hands, when the prices between BD UL's and Totems are pretty similar, that is a no brainer on what would make more sense.    

All that said, I will happily use them and place them when they are on a rack, even if I don't recommend them to anyone. Glad they're working out for you!