Free instruction for indigenous peoples in NA.

Kief Manning wrote: Climbing keeps my depression in check and my stress at bay. My climbing helps everyone in this world because it has probably kept me from killing a bunch of people. But it has also helped with many many groups of people. Look at the public outreach. Some mentioned above. Look at the many benefits that many people derive from an escape from other worthless pursuits like work. Everything in life is a contrivance.  But work, money, and success are the worst. We invented those things as a society. They mean nothing. And have no value. Slave to some contrived BS for “survival”. Blah. The most selfish thing in life is going to work 12 hours a day to support the family you never see. Slave your butt off so others reap the rewards. What kind of a climber says there is no point. You are one of those climbers we can do without and probably responsible for a lot of the garbage the rest of us pick up on a weekly basis. As for the OP. His posts come off as spray. He wants to do something “good” well good luck to him. But as stated earlier. Work on your approach brother. Not everyone wants to be saved and most people dont need the condescension. If you want to do something at of the goodness of your heart , maybe do it before announcing it on the internet. Spray well sweet prince. 

Dont show your fangs in front of the livestock dude. It makes them nervous and they won't understand anyways. Let them be content in their pens they don't know anything else. I feel ya but no way the square eyes will understand. You gotta stuff it down.

This post violated Guideline #1 and has been removed.

Hi Kevin, thanks for your offer to help indigenous climbers. I’m a member of the Penobscot people in Maine. I’m a beginner climber are you anywhere close to Maine? Allie

Pretty funny how many folks take this shit serious. Don’t worry everyone. I am not violent. But as a wise man once said if you can’t joke about one thing then you can’t joke about anything. So relax a bit. I wouldn’t climb with most of you either. I just read this BS when I have to shit. Seems appropriate. Garbage in. Garbage out

OMG what a d-bag!!!

A friend of mine went roped soloing up ship rock. Came back to find his truck window busted out with gear stolen. Probably indigenous Americans. If we could open their hearts up to the world of climbing, it might cut down on the hostility. Big brand climbing companies have been gaining access to climbing in foreign Nations by approaching with humility. I think it's kind of silly to exile one's self and others from a big, beautiful cliff or mountain because it's sacred. But disregarding and disrespecting the peoples' wishes just makes us look like soulless, cowardice demons. I really hope they don't read the dominant cultures premise. That just drives the sword deeper. It sounds like a very immature, thoughtless, passive aggressive jab lol!

Kevin Shon wrote: Hi all, "OP" speaking.

Much of this is sadly humorous...

You are condescending.  But, we already knew that.

Reframed - I would assume you'd have the same comments for Conrad Anker? Khumbu Climbing School - trying to provide technical instruction to local indigenous peoples working hard in the mountains without the skills, it just takes place in the Himalaya. Do you have the same thing to say to the North face? If there are any indigenous people interested in climbing from wherever in the world, and they happen to be in North America - I'm happy to climb with them. It's not that complicated. We climb on native lands on the regular - what have "we" done to acknowledge that? Just curious...

Comparing yourself to Conrad Anker eh?  

You're right - the Res's have problems - lots of them - it was designed to have that outcome based on a contrived set of parameters ("go live within this postage stamp and go do your tribal thing...you'll be cool... here's some blankets.... use them! We're your buddy imperialist federales... trust us! Life will be better this way!" White manifest destiny tended to create problems that broke a lot of other cultures, and we have not taken real action to pick up those pieces. But that's for another topic/post.

Getting in your correct thinking here.  Which section of the little red book is this transcribed from?

My offer was well sculpted: 

Kind of like your abdominals, right?

An opportunity contingent upon the self-determination of climbers who are indigenous, or people who identify as a member of this community that think they might like climbing and want to know more ... not a banner of white savior complex, not an ignorant idealism on par with a grade school bakesale trying to save the world, not a humble brag about some skills I possess. I don't think Indigenx people are sitting around waiting for prince climbing to come sweep them up. It was a standing offer based on climber's interest who happen to identify as native/indigenous. It's climbing - it's not global/macro economics, systems thinking, designing the next payload bay for the international space station, or nuclear development administrative policy. Some of you really took that one and ran with it! Disappointed.

You are disappointed in the response you received on a online forum.  I hope you continue to be disappointed.  And you should expect that when you venture outside your filter bubble.

I'll leave it at this:

Please, oh please, do leave it at this and don't write any more.

-We climb on lands that were at one time occupied entirely by indigenous folks. Those folks have been moved off of that land, we've re-branded much of it as "public lands" and many of us will go there unaware of the history of place and people. If I want to climb with someone, no matter who- it's my prerogative and has nothing to do with your opinion on it. You're free to climb with whomever you want. So, kindly, step off :) Ain't America great??!

Yes, all those technical rock climbers doing something that didn't exist at the time of the American Westward Expansion and genocide of the North American Natives.  

What fraction of public climbing areas exist on land where indigenous folks were relocated from?  That'd be some data there.

You tell me to "step off" but you post on a public forum....OK.  That fits.

-Land acknowledgement is an important theme among outdoor indigenous recreationalists. We will be better served, particularly white men, to go learn the history that was there prior to white colonization. It's part of where we are today on many of the prevalent issues other commentators expressed concern about. I suppose it's easier to join the ranks of trolls and critics...but if you're going to do that - please have some intelligent rhetoric on the topic.

You sure are very woke.  The Nobel Committee would like to award you a Nobel Price in Wokeness....CONGRATS!

-If am am able to build meaningful relationship with identity groups and cultures other than my own in a responsible way - everyone benefits. I don't think I am some magician with amazing skills that can save a group of people. I'm not doing anyone any favors with my offer. I am attempting to get more people into experiencing meaningful time in the mountains and if I can be part of making the world a more balanced space for everyone? Good. My offer is not a handout. It's a handshake and a belay device or crashpad. Don't overthink it, my fellow bros. 

I don't see how I benefit if you go outside your comfort zone and become friends with normal people who aren't White Cis Males.  But, you should definitely do that.

-To clarify - I don't think I'm awesome, special, deserving of some award nor cool just because I am seeking training and certification by an IFMGA recognized federation body member within the United States. It's just what I am pursuing professionally, much like may of you have professions that hopefully you're passionate about. Guiding is much different than recreational climbing. In guiding, we have a professional obligation to implement security systems, often but not always involving ropes where a fall would be catastrophic. It's not a flashy, sexy, cool awesome braggadocious "look at me" job. It's simply a set of skills to keep people secure in the mountains at a professional level. Personal/recreational climbing has its own equivalent, only difference is that there's no professional obligation in recreational climbing to maintain security of a paying client. That's all there is. Some of you are giving it too much credence/flash. Normalize guiding in the US and stop being intimidated or having your insecurities challenged by it. You're not a guide? COOL! I'm not an electrician - I'm not making fun of electricians because I think they think they're better than me. Talk about useless projection onto others.... 

Electricians perform services to enable the modern economy.  Climbers are hedonists.  Guides take hedonists money to provide them with maximum hedonism.  You compare yourself to the rock-ribbed folks who perform critical work on the infrastructure undergirding our economy.   It's a conceit.  Recognize that you are conceited.

My views do not represent the AMGA, IFMGA, all white people, climbers or anything. They're mine alone.

We know.  Thanks for the disclaimer Guide Dude.

Allison Glossian wrote: Hi Kevin, thanks for your offer to help indigenous climbers. I’m a member of the Penobscot people in Maine. I’m a beginner climber are you anywhere close to Maine? Allie

Gotta be a troll profile, lol.

How autismo are you dankonerd that you literally picked apart an entire troll post and responded to each paragraph separately???

Did you get too many vaccinations as a kid?

1. 5.Seven Kevin wrote: How autismo are you dankonerd that you literally picked apart an entire troll post and responded to each paragraph separately???

Did you get too many vaccinations as a kid?

Are you saying too many vaccinations will lead to autism. I have never heard autism used as a insult. Your seem like an asshole who hates people with special needs. 

trailridge wrote:

Are you saying too many vaccinations will lead to autism. I have never heard autism used as a insult. Your seem like an asshole who hates people with special needs. 

I hate every body, now go donate to the autism research fund and stop being a #hashtaghero.

White knighting on mountain project doesn't earn you any morality points 

• 5.Seven Kevin wrote:

I hate every body, now go donate to the autism research fund and stop being a #hashtaghero.

White knighting on mountain project doesn't earn you any morality points 

What does making fun of autism earn you

When you call someone a white knight you've already lost.

Please practice compassion.

Wait, here's the internet/social media logic move of the week:

"So, brah, you're, like, uh, comparing yourself to my bro Conrad, ha! Burn! #vanlife forever, yo."

Yeah, that's what he suggested, dude. "I'm trying to offer native Americans free climbing," but you'd love to misrepresent that as "I send way harder than, uh, those bros in that film, you know, the one...uh, oh yeah, Meru."

MountainProject increasingly devolves into nothing much more than a firm exercise in "bros" trying to be right, rather than accurate. There are bright lights occasionally (and thanks to everybody who can actually interact appropriately, productively, and even disagree with some measure of composure), but most of these guys (almost all dudes, it seems, the worst offenders with anonymous accounts) are just on here to try and diminish someone else in the hopes it boosts their perceived standing.....pretty hollow.

Kevin, just ignore it, dude, offer what you're offering and move on. All the insults and name calling ... just steer around it. That'd be my only advice. Ugh, what a waste.

coppolillo wrote: Wait, here's the internet/social media logic move of the week:

"So, brah, you're, like, uh, comparing yourself to my bro Conrad, ha! Burn! #vanlife forever, yo."

Yeah, that's what he suggested, dude. "I'm trying to offer native Americans free climbing," but you'd love to misrepresent that as "I send way harder than, uh, those bros in that film, you know, the one...uh, oh yeah, Meru."

MountainProject increasingly devolves into nothing much more than a firm exercise in "bros" trying to be right, rather than accurate. There are bright lights occasionally (and thanks to everybody who can actually interact appropriately, productively, and even disagree with some measure of composure), but most of these guys (almost all dudes, it seems, the worst offenders with anonymous accounts) are just on here to try and diminish someone else in the hopes it boosts their perceived standing.....pretty hollow.

Kevin, just ignore it, dude, offer what you're offering and move on. All the insults and name calling ... just steer around it. That'd be my only advice. Ugh, what a waste.

Agreed...MP has gotten really nasty lately--the OP offered a service and the worms come out of the woodwork.

While I shouldn't play the game, I find myself bored as Germany starts getting c-c-c-cold.  Tick lists aren't any determinant of who is and isn't a climber, but I do get a bit of schadenfreude looking at the profiles of the worst offenders...whether or not there is any legitimacy in what we put out on the internet is its own question.

Kevin, I used to volunteer with a wonderful organization in the Puget Sound area--be happy to put you in touch re:DM.

With you, Travis. I worked with Paradox Sports for a while (not that climbing can be beneficial to anybody, but you know...), so imagine posting here and I used a term for an adaptive climber that people didn't like --- "differently abled" or something people found PC ... and then got lambasted for it. Having watched dozens of climbers participate in Paradox's programs, I probably saw what you did in the PNW -- people sidelined or unable to get into mainstream climbing, getting pitches at a cliff.....and being so stoked!

I remember doing a thing in the Enchantments with a fun gang of vets, everybody from an air force guy who'd been blown up by an IED to Jukesy who is a below-the-knee amputee to a Ranger who had a bunch of his hand blown off...so we spend three days in the Enchantments, slogging in the snow...and end early, so we race back to Seattle to get dinner, etc, and then hit the rock gym....we walk in and this young dude, Manny, a sgt (I think) in the Marines who'd lost an entire arm due to an IED....we walk in to the rock gym and he takes one look at the walls and says...."I'm fucked, I can't do this...." So we spend a while at the base trying to think about climbing together and he sees a corner feature and says, "Well, maybe I could just use both sides of the corner," and we decide to try it, and he spends 20 minutes stemming and butt-scumming and improvising, and he slays.....he was pretty chill about it and laughing, but man, I was fucking psyched, so impressed that this dude who had never really climbed (I think he rappelled a bit in the USMC, but not real wall climbing), just invented his own process, decided to go for it, and ended up sending....he was a killer, so cool, so mellow......

anyway, I just think there are some cool things that can happen when somebody like Kevin dives in, even if it's an imperfect solution, or he uses goofy language....TimmyO and I started the adaptive book that Paradox now shares with universities and rock gyms...and I remember feeling super intimidated and awkward about interviewing mark westman, first paraplegic to climb El Cap, and Timmy just said, "Dude, fuck it, just ask straight up if you don't know what to say or it's awkward. You'll see." sure enough....the adaptive athletes were so fucking cool about just talking about everything, taking care of their skin, what to do with a poop bag, laughing about able-bodied people trying to tiptoe around shit like Maureen Beck's "stump".....EVERYTHING was fair game as soon as you just broke the ice and said, "OK, so, i don't know exactly what to say here, but ... does anybody need to deal with a poop bag before we start climbing?" or something like that....all the athletes kinda saw, all right, this dude doesn't know a lot, but he's trying to help and he's sincere.....that was all we needed to team up and do some cool stuff.

Long-winded way of saying. WTF people, take the piss on Kevin if you don't like him using "cis-gendered" or some shit, but give the guy some credit here....he's trying to help people.

I got to know lots of young people who would love to break the law bootleg guiding formations that are not so holy as Ship Rock for cash. Charge for safe parking, and even more for guiding FA’s.They just didn’t know how. Hence my earlier mention of AMGA certified guides moving there for a few seasons to volunteer their expertise and instruction, as well as hefty donations of gear to get them equipped (most own hardly anything) to make guiding on their land a means of income. With a posse of expert native guides, think what they could tell tribal government to do with their ban on climbing on the Rez.
It’s kind of screwed up that someone with CA plates IS bootleg guiding up there, at least when I was there...they even had an aluminum ladder stashed under the hang on the standard route! Maybe she/he is a bad ass Apache! If so, it’s kind of awesome.
Barber, Bennet, Cathedral, Ford Butte, all have incredible potential for guides, & for the many locals living in close proximity, who could charge for access/parking/vending.