Free instruction for indigenous peoples in NA.

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Wait, the OP was about native Americans? Strange, let me re-read it again

Ha nice one, 

no it was about a white guy wanting to brag that he is a guide,  (fuck, who ISNT a guide these days) but not only a guide, a culturally (in)sensensitive guide

Meh. Why is everyone upset that some guy wants to donate his time? Whether or not there are more practical ways to do so shouldn't matter as long as he actually follows through.

Instagram is not a long word there is no need to shorten it.  Instagram is fine

trailridge wrote:  wish I knew how to better hashtag and just bank on Insta)

Instagram is not a long word there is no need to shorten it.  Instagram is fine

I believe actually the kids use "the 'Gram."  I can't even get my hip lingo right!

Funny, people recommending the OP should "put his efforts" elsewhere or recommend he apply his energies to domestic violence, res issues, etc.

That presumes he's not already or hasn't already in his career. What if, just as an argument, the OP had a graduate degree in social work or something and already has a second career helping other people?

Agreed, MP snark is pretty lame.

Kevin---great job, dude, actually benefiting someone with your climbing and guiding ... imagine that! I just met a dude who does outdoor rec in refugee camps in northern Iraq ... awesome. Not sure I'd go, but what a cool project. I've kept in touch with him, let you know what it's all about if I get up the stones to go....

RC

coppolillo wrote:  actually benefiting someone with your climbing and guiding ... 

No one benefits from climbing...this is a big stretch. 

grog m wrote:

No one benefits from climbing...this is a big stretch. 

If a certified guide who also holds an MSW takes a lesser advantaged person climbing, shows him/her a bit of their public lands, maybe shows 'em a great experience they wouldn't otherwise be able to enjoy......i'd say i disagree. do you benefit from your climbing? i certainly do mine. i bet Kevin would say he does, too. i'd bet most people on mp benefit from their own climbing. why not help somebody else try and do the same?

I'm with Rob on this one.
If the OP wants to do a good deed, I'm ok with that.
I don't see why he should be discouraged by a bunch of complainers who feel he should do a different good deed that they prefer.

OTOH, I think the world already has too many climbers, so maybe he should rethink the project...

grog m wrote:

No one benefits from climbing...this is a big stretch. 

Yeeeeeeah... you're wrong.

How does climbing improve someone's life? Its one of the most selfish activities we can do. 

grog m wrote: How does climbing improve someone's life? Its one of the most selfish activities we can do. 

in many ways i agree, but....Maybe not climbing in and of itself, perhaps just being outside racking up on vitamin D? This can be achieved any number of ways. Climbing just so happens to be at an intensity that is capable of keeping my attention. But in the end, turns into feeding the rat if i'm not careful. Bridle your passions right?

JCS

grog m wrote: How does climbing improve someone's life? Its one of the most selfish activities we can do. 

I'm sure you could ask one of the kids in my school's outdoor club who get out of their shitty foster home lives once a week to climb. Or maybe my climbing partner who OD'd on fentanyl, is now in recovery, takes his addictive personality and applies it to obsessing over his next climbing project.

Sometimes "selfish" = self help.

Pnelson wrote:

I'm sure you could ask one of the kids in my school's outdoor club who get out of their shitty foster home lives once a week to climb. Or maybe my climbing partner who OD'd on fentanyl, is now in recovery, takes his addictive personality and applies it to obsessing over his next climbing project.

Sometimes "selfish" = self help.

Yep, sometimes.  Other times, friends and family pay a price for that selfishness.

Hi all, "OP" speaking.

Much of this is sadly humorous. I take this unfortunate banter about an idea as the very stuff that generates the stereotypes of MP being trash and dismissable in value among forums. Speaking of climbing, so much forum commentary has become a recreational sport in and of itself (don't you people have routes to send?) Many of you are drawing vast conclusions about my intent - I appreciate the opinions - some of the commentary is really useful, basically calling into question my intentions of offering climbing to anyone of a particular community interested in recreating that way.

Reframed - I would assume you'd have the same comments for Conrad Anker? Khumbu Climbing School - trying to provide technical instruction to local indigenous peoples working hard in the mountains without the skills, it just takes place in the Himalaya. Do you have the same thing to say to the North face? If there are any indigenous people interested in climbing from wherever in the world, and they happen to be in North America - I'm happy to climb with them. It's not that complicated. We climb on native lands on the regular - what have "we" done to acknowledge that? Just curious...

You're right - the Res's have problems - lots of them - it was designed to have that outcome based on a contrived set of parameters ("go live within this postage stamp and go do your tribal thing...you'll be cool... here's some blankets.... use them! We're your buddy imperialist federales... trust us! Life will be better this way!" White manifest destiny tended to create problems that broke a lot of other cultures, and we have not taken real action to pick up those pieces. But that's for another topic/post.

My offer was well sculpted: An opportunity contingent upon the self-determination of climbers who are indigenous, or people who identify as a member of this community that think they might like climbing and want to know more ... not a banner of white savior complex, not an ignorant idealism on par with a grade school bakesale trying to save the world, not a humble brag about some skills I possess. I don't think Indigenx people are sitting around waiting for prince climbing to come sweep them up. It was a standing offer based on climber's interest who happen to identify as native/indigenous. It's climbing - it's not global/macro economics, systems thinking, designing the next payload bay for the international space station, or nuclear development administrative policy. Some of you really took that one and ran with it! Disappointed.

Climbing guiding: I mean, if you want to do your own electrical work at your home? Awesome! Go for it.... but some people might want to hire an electrician.... guides/instructors are no different: skilled labor. We don't go around saying "Ohhhhhh DANG!!!!! You see that?!?!?!?!   He thinks he knows about substations, transformers, and A/C Current!!!!! What an asshole!" Ha. It seems there's a lot of ego involved in people's perception of climbing professionals and the judgement of other climbers - whether recreational or professional. I don't think guiding is any cooler than any other profession - it just happens to be mine. I feed myself this way, it's what I have to offer - it's my work. There's no "By the way, did I tell you I'm awesome?" Maybe some people who call them selves guides possess that thought - but you're off your mark there with me. Sorry.

There are so many social workers and other mental health/behavioral healthcare professionals working really hard with the indigenous population, which is pretty okay - albeit operating within a system that is still designed to keep "them" contained. Sounds like a lot of armchair commentators are feeling threatened or diminished by this post... Sorry fragile dudes - I can't do that work for you. But I do think having dialogue is important - so those who have some critical thought process towards my post - I thank you. For those who are in my corner here and in texts, emails, etc. - thank you. Keep the discussion going....

I'll leave it at this:

-We climb on lands that were at one time occupied entirely by indigenous folks. Those folks have been moved off of that land, we've re-branded much of it as "public lands" and many of us will go there unaware of the history of place and people. If I want to climb with someone, no matter who- it's my prerogative and has nothing to do with your opinion on it. You're free to climb with whomever you want. So, kindly, step off :) Ain't America great??!

-Land acknowledgement is an important theme among outdoor indigenous recreationalists. We will be better served, particularly white men, to go learn the history that was there prior to white colonization. It's part of where we are today on many of the prevalent issues other commentators expressed concern about. I suppose it's easier to join the ranks of trolls and critics...but if you're going to do that - please have some intelligent rhetoric on the topic.

-If am am able to build meaningful relationship with identity groups and cultures other than my own in a responsible way - everyone benefits. I don't think I am some magician with amazing skills that can save a group of people. I'm not doing anyone any favors with my offer. I am attempting to get more people into experiencing meaningful time in the mountains and if I can be part of making the world a more balanced space for everyone? Good. My offer is not a handout. It's a handshake and a belay device or crashpad. Don't overthink it, my fellow bros. 

-To clarify - I don't think I'm awesome, special, deserving of some award nor cool just because I am seeking training and certification by an IFMGA recognized federation body member within the United States. It's just what I am pursuing professionally, much like may of you have professions that hopefully you're passionate about. Guiding is much different than recreational climbing. In guiding, we have a professional obligation to implement security systems, often but not always involving ropes where a fall would be catastrophic. It's not a flashy, sexy, cool awesome braggadocious "look at me" job. It's simply a set of skills to keep people secure in the mountains at a professional level. Personal/recreational climbing has its own equivalent, only difference is that there's no professional obligation in recreational climbing to maintain security of a paying client. That's all there is. Some of you are giving it too much credence/flash. Normalize guiding in the US and stop being intimidated or having your insecurities challenged by it. You're not a guide? COOL! I'm not an electrician - I'm not making fun of electricians because I think they think they're better than me. Talk about useless projection onto others.... 

My views do not represent the AMGA, IFMGA, all white people, climbers or anything. They're mine alone.

GO forth. Enjoy. Take a second to get to know someone before you start projecting about them. Climb well. Don't get too serious about it all.

Out. 

Kevin Shon wrote: Hi all, "OP" speaking.

particularly white men, to go learn the history that was there prior to white colonization.

Thanks for generalizing a group based on skin color and gender! 

Your first post still comes off as white guilt spray..... This latest is too long but it seems slightly better thought out? I don't know I don't want to read 14 paragraphs.

grog m wrote:

No one benefits from climbing...this is a big stretch. 

https://www.huffpost.com/entry/health-benefits-rock-climbing_n_5708847

If you do read all 14 paragraphs, you'll see that the OP has his head screwed on right about all this.  His stance is not out of perspective, and the intent behind his original post seemed appropriate and welcome to me.  Just a guy trying to do some good and restore some balance in the world using the tools he has, like his profession.  Keep on, Kevin.

btw - people have been talking internet shit for nearly 20 years a la New England Bouldering, No Rope, 0Friction, etc.
this is just the most recent manifestation of the message board.