Funky vantage anchors?

What's up with the stacks of washers on anchors in the feathers? Noticed a few anchor bolts had up to 8 washers piled up between the hanger and the nut. Including anchors that had clearly been replaced more than once if I'm going to trust all the drill holes up top. 

A silly way of cheaping out on anchors that were popular for a while. Pretty common to see on easy/moderate sport routes in washington unfortunately. They're sketchy and need to be replaced as they torque the bolts weird since they stick out.

The washers and chain link are also way thicker than a standard bolt hanger. This results in much less of the bolt actually penetrating the rock. Consider them bad and try not to whip a whole lot on them, I've clipped many all over the state and consider them OK for lowering and TRing on. Report them here if you come across any more. badbolts.com

If the hanger is against the rock, it doesn’t effect the strength at all. It just means the bolts were too long. The force is still applied to the same point as a hanger without washers

saign charlestein wrote: If the hanger is against the rock, it doesn’t effect the strength at all. It just means the bolts were too long.

... or it means the holes were too shallow, and strength could very much be affected.

Why did you travel all the way from Colorado to climb at the Feathers?

Post Photos of these things please

Dan Cooksey wrote: Why did you travel all the way from Colorado to climb at the Feathers?

I Just moved back here from Colorado. Was looking for dry rock within striking distance of Seattle. 

BenJamN wrote: A so-called 90s practice for a cheap alternative to more expensive hangers- never made sense to me but i think Burdo or Windham used them at world wall I. It is strange to read they’re being utilized @the feathers. Those anchors used to be normal bolts/hangers. Apparently those were pulled and not replaced in same hole as well which is alarming as well. Sloppy work; please fix Or join washingtonanchors.org

A few burdo routes in Mazama still have these types of anchors although he's been replacing a lot of them in the past few years. 

Dan Cooksey wrote: Why did you travel all the way from Colorado to climb at the Feathers?

Why climb at the feathers ever?

For those not familiar the bolt on the right is a washer stack on chain. Large ID fender washers against the rock, then the chain is bolted directly, with smaller ID washers stacked on top that capture the sleeve of the bolt. You would use a longer bolt over 4" since a good portion of it is now sticking out of the hole.
This is going to change how shear loads are applied to the bolt to some degree, in theory they may be weaker than a normal hanger/sleeve combo but honestly that's not the concern. You're not going to see the bolt fail in normal climbing loads with this type of anchor when new. Hell the top "bolt" of lay of the land at 32 gets whipped on all the time and that chain/washer stack is still going strong (although it's on my short list to replace). 

The real problem that comes up with these is that they leave a huge portion of the bolt and sleeve exposed and the washers tend to let water in and trap it. The sleeves on these things corrode far more heavily than they do on a normal hanger where you have something blocking water from getting in. On this anchor for example, the bolt on the left has a sleeve that was actually still in great shape despite the outward appearance of rust. On the right though, the sleeve was closer to dust than metal, most of this was actually the sleeve rusting away

If the sleeve rusts out severely enough there is nothing holding the cone in and eventually you could get an axial pull with the right pull. On the top anchor that's more doubtful.

For anyone reading, if you want to see unsafe hardware replaced consider a donation to WARP, anything you contribute goes straight to replacement hardware costs. Info on costs at the bottom of the main page: washingtonanchors.org/

Benjamin if you've replaced bolts before just apply for a grant from WARP for these guys, no need to outlay for the hardware. You'll get stainless chain for the anchor also which is nice and can spec for lower off biners given that the feathers see so much traffic. Here's what I put on the route above, yes I know I need to get back with an angle grinder and chop off the extra links. Only so many tools I can lug out in a day ;)

BenJamN wrote: Yah- I think they were always used as sort of place holders due to no more hangers in stock. Although some remained for years (decades even) e.g. Reptiles & Amphetamines or Jug or Not at world wall I.  

Actually the washer stacks still remain on jug or not. No one has cared enough to replace them since it's not one of the classics and had been covered in cobwebs most of the time. Lots more traffic looking for moderates showing up with the new guide book and I've actually seen people on even the most obscure moderates now so maybe it's time.

Burdo has still been using washer stacks recently, the left/direct start on beefcake pantyhose at K9 crag had two bolts now which didn't exist last summer.  Second one is now an odd way to make a permadraw, draw length chain with an aluminum oval on it. Hopefully he just put that in temporarily to suss out bolt locations for that direct start, seemed goofy to me. 

Alex, do you remember what routes you saw that on?

Gaarth, I think Becky Route 5.7 was one of them. There were at least two down the far right of the north side. Not really sure what we jumped on, just kinda got on whatever. 

Fair enough, thanks dude.

Well I have to take back what I said earlier about corrosion being the only real concern, found something I never would have expected replacing bolts on one of the earliest established routes at 32 yesterday.  Usually with the washer stacks you find a longer bolt that still puts the cone deep in the hole.

This thing was  that familiar washer stack anchor, but I was amazed to find very short 2.25-2.5" bolts only. That meant that with the washer stack + chain thickness only about say 1.25-1.5" of bolt was in the rock. That doesn't meet minimum embedded depth (at least on current dewalt/power-bolt stainless specs, I don't have RAWL docs to check). With how rusted those sleeves were the holding power was getting quite low...........I'm glad they weren't lead bolts. 

That will work

Nick, that's great info.  Most stackers have a lot of life to them, but not every anchor you run across was planned as a long term solution.  Frenchman Coulee has a lot of top-down development anchors that were only designed to help the route builder explore the rock.  You can walk along the top of Sunshine or Rider and see time of examples of this.

Ben, thanks for tackling that.  Bring a small file to get the sides of the bolt head down.  It looks stripped as bejeeberz.