Repeat Sexual Assault in El Potrero Chico

Buck Rio wrote:

Bill: I spent years in places that are far worse than EPC. Believe me, when the price of naiveté  is kidnap and torture, you keep your head on a swivel and travel in groups and (preferably) be armed. 

Yeah, and then you came home and no longer had to worry about IED's and snipers and getting kidnapped and tortured.  Unfortunately, 8 out of 10 rapes are committed by someone known to the victim.  34% of juvenile sexual abuse is by family members. Military service is a choice. Being born female is not.

FrankPS wrote:

I think this one is the most valuable and realistic. Thank you.

I really hope you also think “don’t assault anyone” is realistic....

Em Cos wrote:

I really hope you also think “don’t assault anyone” is realistic....

Yeah, I thought that was too obvious. The people that commit these acts probably don't care about admonitions like that!

FrankPS wrote:

Yeah, I thought that was too obvious. The people that commit these acts probably don't care about admonitions like that!

That’s why the rest of the list is really important too! If it seems like a lot, it is. Some might even say it’s exhausting. 

Em Cos wrote:

I really hope you also think “don’t assault anyone” is realistic....

I wouldn’t hold much hope for him.

Colonel Mustard wrote:

I wouldn’t hold much hope for him.

Wanna see my puppies?

Edit: Over my post limit. I only say this to you, Colonel!

pfwein wrote:

I'd like to see a link to a news story or any other information about this one (I did some quick Googling and didn't see anything relevant, but maybe I just didn't look hard enough).

I'll admit I'm skeptical as this screams "urban legend," but I don't know.

I agree--that story sounds like an urban legend mixed with a macho male fantasy of the heroic tough guy of saving the damsel in distress--almost a perpetuation of sexist stereotypes.   There's also a distinctive pattern of specific details mixed with vague generalities, and a convenient lack of a way to find supporting evidence, that makes me suspicious.  Also, what does it add to the thread?  Is it supposed to teach us to watch out backs?  That that world can be a dangerous and unforgiving place?  That in the old days these things were dealth with differently?  Or is it just a way for people to fantasize about themselves playing the the hero role, or even a sick fantasy about assaulting a drunk girl behind a restaurant?  Just weird.   Maybe it happened, or something like it happened, but I wouldn't bet on it. 

As to the original post, I don't see anything that would make me doubt the allegations, such as one individual with a personal vendetta leading that charge.  And it seems corroborated by several others.  The guy seems creepy and weird.  

I think a facebook page reporting all this is a good idea.  

That whole post about the military and sexual assaults...it's offensive.  

It seems like a knee-jerk reaction to any mention of women's rights, or the particular challenges women face.  Some people hear that, and they immediately get defensive and attack women (it was her fault for not being vigilant enough) or try to level the playing field (men face assaults too so women should stop whinning).  

Of course in the military as in prison (predominantly male environments) there will be assaults on men.  However, if you limited your analysis to just the military, and compared male-on-male assaults to male-on-female assaults (now that more women are serving in the military) I'm quite sure you would find far more male-on-female assaults, on a percentage basis.   Just as, if you zoomed out to the whole population, of course there are numerous sexual assaults on men and boys, but there are far more sexual assaults on women, on both a percentage basis, and in absolute terms.  Women live with the threat of that violence daily.

That doesn't mean we shouldn't acknowledge male-on-male assaults, in the military or anywhere else.  This is a big problem, made worse by the taboo about homosexuality that prevents victims from coming forward.  But that doesn't mean that women's concerns are any less valid.  

I grew up in New York City in the late seventies and the early eighties, in a neighborhood that was the absolute global epicenter for homosexual culture, and later, the Aids epidemic, and all that followed.  NYC was a different place in those times.  I was object of sexual attention constantly in that neighborhood, and while that gives me some insight into what women face, it's in no way equivalent to how women live all over the world.  

Also, growing up at that time my sister and I faced diffeent kinds of dangers.  I was a tall, skinny, middle-class, white kid.  From about the age of about 8 to 18 I faced the constant threat of physical violence--assault, robbery, mugging, beating, and so on.  It changed how I lived, how I dressed, where I went, what I did, how I acted...in many ways, it changed the whole course of my life, including maybe part of the reason I started climbing.  My sister did not face the same kind of physical violence.  There was far less chance of her getting beat up or mugged on the street.  But there was a much greater chance of her getting sexually assaulted at a party, or being followed and a raped somewhere on the street.  There was also, for her, the everpresent danger posed by familiar adults, the parents of friends, teachers, and so on...all the men who saw an atractive young women and wanted to take advantage.  As profound as my experience was, I can only imagine that her experience was yet more powerful and life changing.  

I think his applies to climbers in Mexico as well; the kinds of violence men and women face are different.  There's probably a much greater chance of some American guys getting beat up and robbed, but there is a greater chance of American girls getting sexually assaulted.  

The world can be fucked up--one solution, climbing above it all on a high rock wall.  

Katia M wrote:
We're not talking about being threatened with a weapon or getting in a bloody fight.

Actually, we are, you just don't understand the range of consequences.  

Buck Rio wrote:
Believe me, when the price of naiveté  is kidnap and torture, you keep your head on a swivel and travel in groups and (preferably) be armed.

When there are sharks in the water, you don't go swimming.

Yes, I share this attitude.  Once you see and/or experience something violent, you'll never unsee the possibilities.

Em Cos wrote:
Buck, it absolutely can be considered exhausting. You know this, because someone just told you it’s exhausting.

It’s not exhausting for you, that is reason to recognize that men and women experience the world very differently, not reason to invalidate women’s experiences.

I find it very exhausting to stay safe in Shithole Countries - which is why I generally avoid them.

Etha Williams wrote:
What I find most interesting (sad) about this thread is that here we have a situation where the alleged perpetrator has been identified, and still a majority of posts revolve around what people imagine the victims should have done differently.

Feel free to go down and confront the guy.  Mentally healthy and mature adults tend to focus on the things they have control over and can change.  

Tim Stich wrote:
I assure you, it's not a myth.

Taking out 2 guys, 1 with a knife, sounds like Hollywood - not to mention supremely stupid to attempt.  It's more likely one or both rapists would have fled - because they're usually cowards.  However, 80's is pre-www.news so it's hard to confirm either way.

Above all else....look out for one another... you see something say something. Even if its a stranger. protect each other like you would protect them from a wolf.

Tim Stich wrote:

Your best best is to contact whatever newspaper handles the Fredericksburg area. I heard the story first hand from someone who was there. It's not something he liked to talk about. I have the old e-mails where he told me the story, but he had forgotten the exact year (mid to late 80s) and given that it's not going to be on computer records. I've been meaning to do that research myself, as I would like to do a full write up of the story. I assure you, it's not a myth. 

I agree with ddriver's (and other's) comment.  Not looking to start a minifeud with you or anyone else, but that's a bizarre story, and it's strange we can't find any evidence of it on Google, even though I appreciate your point that 80s is before the modern computer era.  (And as I mentioned, maybe there is something on the Internet and I just didn't find it, but I'm guessing you've spent some looking too and didn't find anything.)

Here may be a quick way to at least sort of fact check it:  if you know any UT law students who were there in the late 80s, I feel 99.9% sure they would know if two law students were killed in a knife fight, and that story would be well known in that law school community for some time.

Checking a local newspaper may also be a good idea:  if you don't want to do it, I can see if I can if I have time.  (I don't have any special interest other than a bit of a crime buff and climbing history buff, and I'd like to get to the bottom of this if it can done relatively quickly/easily.)

Colonel Mustard wrote:

Had I violated many of Buck’s tenets of head on a swivel? Sure. Those same guys had been offering me tequila and beer I did not need at that point. My friends had long since left the party. I thought they were friendly guys and there was still a mix of Mexican and American climbers at the party, so i didn’t feel a menacing vibe.
If I’d taken a cinderblock to my head as the guy was set up to deliver, I wonder what story the climbers there and folks like Buck would tell? I’m not wondering that much, really.

Why is it when anybody just says "Watch out" they are the bad guy???

Don't assume you know what I am thinking or what my intentions are, you don't know.  Bad shit happens to good people. There are fucking psychopaths hiding in churches and bars and political office, you can't tell who they are until they blindside you.

If I’d taken a cinderblock to my head as the guy was set up to deliver, I wonder what story the climbers there and folks like Buck would tell? I’m not wondering that much, really.

The story I would tell is the one you just laid out, a bunch of people having a good time were disrupted by a psychopath intent on murder and mayhem...not your fault, you were just having a good time.

But the fact you are telling this story proves you had enough wherewithal to get out alive and weren't so incapacitated you couldn't defend yourself (flee).  Good on you :)

David Gibbs wrote: I have not heard these allegations before.

I have no specific reason to believe these allegations are true, though I have the general reason to believe they are true which is that, most often, when a woman states, and especially when multiple women state, they have been sexually assaulted, then they have actually been sexually assaulted.   Also, I have no reason to believe these allegations are false.  

On the flip side, an anonymous new account on MP isn't exactly a reliable source.

David: Does this mean that all of the democrats accused in the "Me Too" movement are guilty of their crimes? Almost 100% of those accused are democrats. But I digress. Lust a few years ago, the u n, of all organizations, was about to declare Mexico to be a failed state. Basically that means the government cannot carry out its most basic responsibilities, including guaranteeing basic safety for its citizens. Visitors from out of the country might have it a little better because of their tourist dollars, but don't bet on it. I live in Albuquerque, and the people I work with have terrifying stories of visits to Mexico. Make one mistake, and you end up in jail. Then the local thug in charge of that jail call your friends and family to entertain them with stories of your misery, all the while demanding money. When they think they've extorted you and yours for all you're worth, they kick you out onto the street to find your way north. I know people this has happened to personally. Once again I digress, but to make a point. Mexico is still a very dangerous place. The government is VERY corrupt. Most public officials are on the take. If you pay close attention to the news, even the safest tourist destinations have sky high crime rates. Just a few months ago, there was a mass shooting at a resort considered to be safe. (It's almost impossible for private citizens to own guns legally in Mexico, but the drug lords, who were behind the shooting, are often better armed than the police.) Most underdeveloped countries have cultures that don't respect women. Report a crime, you aren't believed. Or the Commandant takes you into his office to "Interview" you. I won't go to Mexico for any reason, and I know a lot of people who won't go anymore; even to visit family. So yes, I do believe the stories.

Buck Rio wrote: Why is it when anybody just says "Watch out" they are the bad guy???

I believe you that this question is sincere and that your, and others', admonitions to be vigilant are often well-intentioned. But maybe instead of asking it defensively, you could ask it with a little bit of curiosity. Why is it that so many women do not find these kinds of admonitions helpful, and may in some cases find them to be counterproductive?

Maybe it's because many women grow up, from an early age, already receiving many messages about the need to protect themselves against a pervasive threat of sexual assault. Maybe it's because women often receive more negative messages like this than positive messages about their right to control what happens to their body.

Maybe it's because a culture of victim-blaming contributes to perpetrators' beliefs that they will not be held responsible for their actions. Maybe it's because when you focus overwhelmingly on the victim's actions rather than those of the perpetrator or community around them, it inadvertently contributes to this.

Maybe it's because if women followed your admonition that "when there are sharks in the water, you don't go swimming," they would feel compelled to avoid everyday situations like going to a workplace party, or meeting up with a new climbing partner from MP, or.... And maybe it's because women are capable of choosing how they manage risk in their everyday life, and comments from random dudes about the precautions they should be taking often do not acknowledge this.

I don't think saying these things makes you a "bad guy," but I do think that you (and others) could spend a little less time offering this advice and more time listening empathetically to the people you are trying to offer advice to.

Back in the mid 80's I was the doorman/bouncer for at the time Denver's reigning nightclub.
As such, I was able to observe all kinds of degenerate behavior nightly.
I knew who came in as couples and was single.
And whenever I saw a male escorting out a incapacitated female, I interceded. Often ruthlessly because I always held honor up as a prime ethic.
I saved a lot of women from being assaulted.
But here is the thing. I am not the norm. I risked all sorts of retaliation and even arrest for assault. Lucky I avoided trouble in that form. I also got slapped by the potential victims occasionally for interfering, which I didn't take seriously due to how out of mind they were.
We are still animals at our core. Shit happens that overwhelms reasoning.

I don't blame anyone for falling victim to a predator.
Instead, I will always speak to the absolute necessity of Situational Awareness and tactics. It is HIGHLY RECOMMENDED that each and every individual takes this up UPON THEMSELVES, and take the appropriate measures. Weapons training, range time, Ju Juitso, a stint in the military, whatever you can. Reading is better than being oblivious. Consider it as mandatory as gym training for extensive travel. This isn't victim shaming.

Until they develop some reliable form of Pre Crime Recognition and we can start plinking out future rapists on playgrounds with sniper fire, predators are going to always be there regardless of the SJW shrieking that it isn't fair.
Our best response right now is for us men to better police ourselves. When a buddy describes a potential SA in that repulsive braggy way they usually do, punch him in the face. Break his nose. Turn him in. It's Patriarchal as fuck, but it's time for men to become men again and shun this bullshit paradigm our sick, feminized watered down pop culture image of fuckbois currently in fashion.

ddriver wrote:

This is off-topic, but I think I would have heard of this incident.  Without any evidence you have only hearsay.  You should be the one to follow up Tim before passing this story on.

It's not hearsay when it comes from the persons directly involved. You are free to question the story if you like. But why not ask around? As I recall, Beth and Barry might have known the two UT guys. That's a place to start. But like I mentioned, no one seems interested in revisiting this incident or the accusations against the two guys. Their friends refused to believe they were sexual predators and were adamant about that not being true.

Hank also just called me and told a good story about how some base jumpers handled a guy in their midst accused of sexual assault by several women. 

To Brother Numsie,

Where to start?  

There is much in your post to commend.  If you did in fact intercede in all those situations--if you even prevented one assault--then I respect that. You put it on the line, and took a stand for what you thought was right.  That doesn't sound easy or safe.  God job.  We need more people like you.  

I'm also glad that you don't blame anybody for being a victim, and share your belief that everybody should stay aware and protect themselves as best possible.  

Last, I agree that this is as much about men as women--men have to stand up to other men about this kind of behavior.  

That said, so much of your post reeks of macho, sexist, bullshit.  

Plinking perps on the playground?

Bullshit paradigm of sick, feminized watered down pop culture?

It's time for men to become men again?

Was there ever time when "Men were men" and presumably "women were women"?  How did men act then, and how did women act?  What kind of mythologized, utopian vision of male and female interactions do you immagine in this past golden era?  And what has changed now?  How has society become better or worse?  

A hint to your conflicted feelings about male and female identity can be found on your profile page:

You wrote:

Doesn't think Feminism is cancer because sometimes cancer is cureable.

In your post, you said that men should call out other men when their behavior was reprehensible, so I'm going to call you out:

Your proclamation about men being men and especially your comparison of feminism and cancer are disgusting.  

If you want to do the right thing (and it sounds like you have the potential to do the right thing) wipe those words and start over.  

What is femism about, other than women standing up for their rights, and demanding equal treatment in this world?  Nothing more more, nothing less.  It's something to applaud, not disparage.

Bruno Schull wrote: To Brother Numsie,

Where to start?  

There is much in your post to commend.  If you did in fact intercede in all those situations--if you even prevented one assault--then I respect that. You put it on the line, and took a stand for what you thought was right.  That doesn't sound easy or safe.  God job.  We need more people like you.  

I'm also glad that you don't blame anybody for being a victim, and share your belief that everybody should stay aware and protect themselves as best possible.  

Last, I agree that this is as much about men as women--men have to stand up to other men about this kind of behavior.  

That said, so much of your post reeks of macho, sexist, bullshit.  

Plinking perps on the playground?

Bullshit paradigm of sick, feminized watered down pop culture?

It's time for men to become men again?

Was there ever time when "Men were men" and presumably "women were women"?  How did men act then, and how did women act?  What kind of mythologized, utopian vision of male and female interactions do you immagine in this past golden era?  And what has changed now?  How has society become better or worse?  

A hint to your conflicted feelings about male and female identity can be found on your profile page:

You wrote:

Doesn't think Feminism is cancer because sometimes cancer is cureable.

In your post, you said that men should call out other men when their behavior was reprehensible, so I'm going to call you out:

Your proclamation about men being men and especially your comparison of feminism and cancer are disgusting.  

If you want to do the right thing (and it sounds like you have the potential to do the right thing) wipe those words and start over.  

What is femism about, other than women standing up for their rights, and demanding equal treatment in this world?  Nothing more more, nothing less.  It's something to applaud, not disparage.

I'll stand pat. There is a huge generational difference between my era and now. And what I typed there was my take on it. Your demand that I adjust it to conform with your sensibilities doesn't register with me.

This thread has brought out all the fun people on the forums... Btw do we have any first hand evidence yet of this guy being all that has been claimed? I was a moderator on Reddit during two massive witch hunts that singled out the wrong individual based 2nd hand rumors. Don't forget we are not far removed from a guy claiming to have his rack stolen mid pitch and that was swallowed hook line and sinker.

Get real evidence and start doing something, there was more done when Devin was in The Valley than has been done because of this guy... 

Jon Hillis wrote: This thread has brought out all the fun people on the forums... Btw do we have any first hand evidence yet of this guy being all that has been claimed? I was a moderator on Reddit during two massive witch hunts that singled out the wrong individual based 2nd hand rumors. Don't forget we are not far removed from a guy claiming to have his rack stolen mid pitch and that was swallowed hook line and sinker.

Get real evidence and start doing something, there was more done when Devin was in The Valley than has been done because of this guy... 

I'm not sure what you're advocating here. Do you want people to wait for real evidence or start doing more?