Indian Creek ethics (yes again)

Ethics Are Bit A Like An Erection, No Matter How Well Intended They Are Prone To Sudden Deflation
  -- Dougal Haston

Allen Sanderson wrote: Ethics Are Bit A Like An Erection, No Matter How Well Intended They Are Prone To Sudden Deflation
  -- Dougal Haston

Sounds like ED to me.

I'd just like to point out that Donovan Allen has done more to move this thread forward in a constructive direction than any of y'all.  ;)

Josh wrote: I'd just like to point out that Donovan Allen has done more to move this thread forward in a constructive direction than any of y'all.  ;)

His punctuation to word ratio is quite high.

Off. The. Chain. 

Damn.. people whining on the internet about people whining on the internet.

People using someone’s wealth to invalidate their post

Stay classy Mountain Project stay classy.

Matt Pierce wrote:

Of course, I've left gear behind in the creek exactly once. I bailed once on Here Kitty Kitty (cat Wall) after I took a huge fall. The difference? I left 3 pieces up high to safely bail (near dark) but took my 80m rope and everything else back to the car. Even though I was coming back the next morning. 

I get worked every single time I crack climb - and I've been at it for 7 years.

Spray.

A few years ago we walked up to Way Rambo and it immediately started raining lightly. We left. On the walkout we encountered a couple starting up a route - in the rain. This isn't even the part that pissed me off. When we got to the CLOSED parking area their truck was there. For those of you who don't know, that parking area is closed because the ranch wants it closed. When driving into Way Rambo there is a turnoff that is clearly marked to NOT ENTER and a small parking area was made for climbers so they wouldnt need to drive down to that other closed parking area. Some people simply can't walk the extra 100 yards or so and drive down there and park anyhow. That's exactly what this guy did. It's like giving a big "fuck you" to the people who OWN the land. That sucks.

You guys think I'm mouthing off but I am simply trying to make a point that I've seen shit firsthand (hence my Jolly Rancher story) and if we keep fucking up our access could be in jeopardy. If you disagree, I'd love to know why. 

Hamish Hamish wrote: Booty that gear, problem solved

That's called theft.

Rob T wrote: They cant move the Needles entrance and fee station to the top of the switchback soon enough. 

Yeah that'd be so awesome if we couldn't bolt new anchors on all those untouched splitters in the back canyons. There's still lots of development happening in the creek. Careful what you wish for. 

This is fun. Someone once told me ethics don't mean shit once you leave flat ground.

Rob T wrote:

Since when has being part of a National Park stopped route development?  Zion, Yosemite, etc don’t seem to be suffering a lack of new route activity from their status as parks. 

Canyonlands National Park has a long-standing ban on the installation of new fixed hardware within its boundaries, and all national parks and their superintendents have the prerogative to set their own standards and practices as they relate to climbing. Lumping all parks together is not rational for this reason as there is no single unified set of principles governing these choices. As another frame of reference in this regard, Zion NP does not allow for commercial rock climbing guiding within the park, nor do Canyonlands or Arches NP, and Yosemite NP has only one sole concessioner (YMS). Other national parks like Rocky Mountain have their own sets of rules allowing for wider utilization of guide services. Including Indian Creek in the park would dramatically affect our local guiding economy by removing the option for folks to seek qualified instruction for all climbing in Indian Creek. This would be devastating to myself and many other guides in the region that rely on this for our livelihood and take pride in showing climbers that are new to the area how to be good stewards and sensible climbers in such a fragile and high use area. I have also been active putting up new routes in the Indian Creek corridor and would be very remorseful if that activity were to be banned. 

Implausible. 

Matt Pierce wrote:

Then don't shit in the toilet. Pay to play, that's life. Give a $1 if that's what you got. As I said, that "shit" aint free. 

Everyone ignore Matt here, please shit in the toilet even if you do not donate.   

Wag. Bag. 

Bryan Gilmore wrote:

eth·ics /ˈeTHiks/
noun
1. moral principles that govern a person's behavior or the conducting of an activity.

mor·al /ˈmôrəl/
plural noun: morals
1. a lesson, especially one concerning what is right or prudent, that can be derived from a story, a piece of information, or an experience.

Seems like those two words fit the situation perfectly.

...except that the def'n of ethics uses moral as an adjective, and you gave the def'n of the nominative form, so... 

bruno-cx wrote:

Cleaning up abandoned property is not theft.  This includes bolt hangers and anchors if you want to be dick about it.

If they’re intending to return for it, it isn’t abandoned, legally speaking.

Athleticism!

Mr Adventure wrote: Hell yeah, man!  Indian creek is sick!!!  I remember climbing there and my hands got tore UP from that sandstone, so righteous!  Drone shots on IHC were bomb, subbed a couple of them to a magazine SCHTEEEEEEEZzzzz!

Dad?

Donovan Allen wrote:

Dad?

Dad spray.