Witnessing people decking...

Tradiban wrote:

Yes. Getting "used to it" IS the coping mechanism.

If y'all don't understand why people forget to clip in (or whatever), go read some books. To keep it simple for you, people lack "presence" in their daily lives and forget lots of things constantly.

To prevent this from happening to you practice "presence" daily. Google it if you don't know how.

The truth!!!!!

Climbing is an inherently dangerous activity.  Accidents happen all of the time and will continue to happen.  It sucks watching someone deck, seeing their injures, and worse... 

A lot (not all) accidents can be prevented through safety checks.  Autobelays are like people, they have pros/cons :-/

Tradiban wrote: It's not empathy that's holding you back, it's your interpretation of how you think society expects you to feel after an accident. It is empathy that allows you to act positively for the victim and set aside your personal issues.

The paradox of trauma is that it has both the power to destroy and the power to transform and resurrect. You choose the result.
                  -Tradiban

Empathy means that, you connect with the emotions of the person that was injured, that's not holding you back it's a human condition. For 'normal' folk. I agree that most people, myself included, can grow from trauma and use it in a positive way, but that's me and a lot of people need more tools than that. I think we can get better at compartmentalizing, at figuring out where to put things, but seeing a crumpled up kid on the floor isn't something you can just put out of your mind with a wave of your hand a quote from Tradiban. 

As everybody has already said, that is terrible and sad but not the fault of the auto belay.

Personally I climb a couple of holds up and jump off.. checking the auto belay has me.. as a personal double check before I climb higher on auto belays.. might look silly but it gives me some peace of mind.

Our gym has a small bag hanging on the wall to the side of the auto belays. The bag is about the size of a loaf of bread and is labeled something like “auto-belay rescue kit”.  Been meaning to ask what is inside.

B L wrote:
Personally I climb a couple of holds up and jump off.. checking the auto belay has me.. as a personal double check before I climb higher on auto belays.. might look silly but it gives me some peace of mind.

I believe penguins do this kind of “shark check” at the edge of the ice after the first goes in.

Bill Lawry wrote: Our gym has a small bag hanging on the wall to the side of the auto belays. The bag is about the size of a loaf of bread and is labeled something like “auto-belay rescue kit”.  Been meaning to ask what is inside.

Rope with two carabiners. One goes onto auto-belay carabiner, rescuer then uses the rope to let rescue carabiner come close to the forgetful climber, climber clips that one into belay loop, and lowers off.

L Kap wrote:
I believe toxic masculinity got brought up in reference to the idea that a person witnessing a traumatic accident should learn to stuff down their emotions and get over it....that admitting vulnerability or an emotional reaction is weakness and that it's better to be stoic and detached in the face of tragedy. I don't especially want to participate in this argument - just trying to avoid unhelpful detours into the gender wars. All genders are impacted by this cultural baggage. 

This is pretty much exactly my point, and I wholeheartedly agree that this cultural baggage impacts all genders. If anything I think it can sometimes harm men more than women, or at least that when people actually do talk about it they tend to focus primarily on the ways it hurts women. In general though, I’m not trying to start a fight about who has it worse. We all have different experiences and unique struggles. No oppression olympics here.

For the record I lived most of my life as a man, empathize a lot with the male experience, and identify as genderqueer. In my experience, the “suck it up” model is more associated with masculine gender norms, while the aptly named “you’re not crying enough” model mentioned by Katia is more associated with feminine gender norms. This is not universal but I’ll own that it is my experience in the world. I think it’s fair to call the former toxic masculinity (which just to be clear doesn’t mean those cultural expectations are the fault of men, women tend to enforce them quite a bit in my experience) while I think culturally we struggle to name and call out the latter. Maybe there’s a better phrase for it though. Any ideas?

If my post seemed to suggest that others aren’t crying enough, I’m sorry, I tried to make it clear that I was advocating the normalization of a variety of tools and techniques to deal with difficult experiences. Im not really sorry you think this is somehow “off topic” because after reading more replies I’m pretty confident it’s not. Personally I’d like to see more genuine discussion about stuff like this on MP and less trolling and red-pilling. Oh well, I can dream at least...

Backcountry skiers train to know and recognize the "human factors" that lead to bad decision making in risky situations. Maybe climbers need to adopt a similar framework when we climb and when we train new climbers. The same accidents keep happening, so maybe we need to be better about recognizing, catching, and stopping the mental traps that lead to these accidents. And teaching new climbers to do the same. 

The usual mnemonic taught to skiers is FACETS:

F: Familiarity. “I’ve skied this slope before and it hasn’t avalanched, thus it must be stable this time.”
A: Acceptance. “If I shred this sweet line right now then my buddies will be impressed.”
C: Consistency. “I made plans to ski the south face of Superior, told several folks my plans and don’t want to alter them.”
E: Expert Halo. “I am concerned about the slope stability, but since my ski partner has her Avalanche 2 certification and doesn’t seem concerned, then it must be OK.”
T: Tracks (scarcity). “The powder is so good today, I’m going to ski this slope because it’s awesome, even though I have concerns in the back of my head.”
S: Social facilitation. “I don’t want to appear like I’m afraid in front of my friends, so I’m going to stick with their decisions.”

, more here and much else on the web.

The incidents related by Nathan Collins, Ryan Williams, Cole Paiment, Fehim Hasecic, and others have a few traits in common, and I recognize several that are part of the FACETS framework.

It was a FAMILIAR environment, a gym or crag routine they or the victim had done hundreds of times before. There was a distraction that interrupted the routine. In especially Nathan's story, there was feeling of SCARCITY- the victim was trying to squeeze in a lap at a crowded gym and maybe felt like he needed to move fast.

Another bias that comes up frequently in backcountry skiing is the "back to the barn" mentality - the desire to cut corners on the last run or pitch of the day, to get home, the feeling that it's "all downhill from here." This was reflected in Fehim's story and in countless other stories about accidents on long descents and on the last pitch of the day.

In teaching newer climbers, I've started making discussion of similar human factors part of the material I cover. Adapting the FACETS framework to climbing obviously requires adjustments to match the different environments and risk profiles. Just off the cuff, here are a few suggested human factors I think are most relevant to climbers (I'll leave it to someone else to make a catchy mnemonic; BEFIS will have to do for now):

Back to the Barn - at the end of the day, thoughts drift to burgers and beer, or at least a soft sleeping bag. Keep focused until you're actually safe.

Expert Halo - the person who presents themself as an expert may not know what the heck they're talking about. Ask questions and make sure you understand a system someone else rigged before committing your weight to it.

Familiarity - the gym and crag begin to feel very familiar and safe after not very long. Strive to remain aware off all the dangers of the gym (tie-in mistakes, auto-belay mistakes, falling iPhones) and crag (lowering off the end of the rope, rapping off the ends, rockfall, weather, loose rock, sketchy third clips, etc, etc.)

Interruption/Distraction - so so many accidents happen when a routine is interrupted. Lynn Hill failing to complete her tie-in knot, all the accidents related here. Recognize when you are distracted during a tie-in or other process. Start over if necessary. Double check anyway.
 
Scarcity - You have an hour to get your gym sesh in. Your partner slept in and you showed up at the crag late and all the warmups are swamped with newbs. It's gonna rain or the sun is going to hit the face any second. This is when things get rushed and you mess up. Recognize the feeling, slow down, and double check.

In my skiing, recognizing and dealing with the human factors has become as important if not more important than the snow analysis geekery. I wonder if we need to move towards a similar attitude in climbing and formally teach the human factors along with the technical skills.

In my gym, I have more confidence in the Autobelay than in top roping with the randoms that I get paired with.  The randoms are all chit-chat and distracted while they're tying in--shouting to friends across the gym, looking up at the route instead of down at the knots as they tie them, starting to climb before the buddy check, etc.  I feel like such a nerd telling them, "Please, let's just focus on the tie-in first" and actually doing a buddy check.  It's like it's not "cool" to actually go through the safety process and I get all sorts of incredulous looks when I check my partner's knot and harness.  Do I just have bad luck (or a bad gym) or does anyone else experience this?

With the AB, I just clip in, take a trust fall by falling back from a standing position, then my biggest concern is whether I'll do three laps or four.  

climber pat wrote:

Yes!  Quit chatting while tieing in and during other critical times.  If you notice you are chatting while tieing in, shut up and restart.  Continue chatting later.

Mike Stephan wrote: The randoms are all chit-chat and distracted while they're tying in--shouting to friends across the gym, looking up at the route instead of down at the knots as they tie them, starting to climb before the buddy check, etc.

This is one of the first things I pound into new climbers heads. When you are tieing your knot you don't do anything else until it is complete. You don't have a conversation; you don't tie your shoes. I've still had to hit some of them for messing it up from breaking this rule (a solid punch in the arm/shoulder to elicit a pain response to drive the fuck-up home). They've all respected it after that.

The other thing I do and encourage others to do is double checking your own knot or autobelay right before you pull on. It takes seconds and can prevent a really bad day.

Glowering wrote: Sorry to hear about this.

I'm not in favor of banning auto belays or headphones because some people misuse them.

I really like the belay gates / triangular tarps. Simple solution that may help prevent this without taking away something someone likes.

But the most basic thing is when you are trusting your life to a line you should always do a double check. If there's a 1 in 10,000 chance of screwing something up when you initially do it, and it's double checked and the chance of screwing the double check up is 1 in 10,000, then it's a 1 in 100,000,000 (1/10,000 * 1/10,000) chance of screwing them both up (my statistics may be off but it's extremely unlikely to screw up if you've double checked). I've been climbing for a long time and I still do double checks on my partners harness (double back if needed, belay loop in good shape), knots connecting the rope to harness are good, belay device is on correctly and biner is locked. If I'm on multipitch, or about the rappel, and I'm by myself, then I double check myself. e.g. if I go in direct the anchor on a tether. Then I check it (trace the rope from my harness to the anchor and check the biner is locked) then in my mind say "double checked" THEN I call off belay. Doesn't matter if it's 5.1 or 5.15. For a self auto belay I would hook in, look up at the route, then look down and check the biner connection.

An employee hooked my 9 year old son up to an autobelay and I always watch to make sure it's done right. He must not have been paying attention because the notch of the biner was caught in the webbing and the autolocking biner did not lock and he sent him up the route. I called out and said the biner is not on correctly and he fixed it. Seems like they should be trained to double check themselves, because I imagine that liability would be on them.

I agree with you people jump on the Ban everything bandwagon way to easy these days. At the end of the day you are responsible for your own safety and this was not a equipment failure.
Just wait for when these people start suing The auto belay company's an the headphone company because they were "distracted" . 

Why was my post removed?  I'm starting to feel discriminated against here, my old account was banned as well for what I think was similar type posts.  I really do enjoy dressing in drag, is that not allowed in the climbing community?  Pretty messed up, I thought we were fairly evolved thinkers/community here.

Obsessed with saying MILLENNIAL wrote: Why was my post removed?  I'm starting to feel discriminated against here, my old account was banned as well for what I think was similar type posts.  I really do enjoy dressing in drag, is that not allowed in the climbing community?  Pretty messed up, I thought we were fairly evolved thinkers/community here.

Someone thought you were being a jerk in your post and flagged it. Someone on the MP team removed it - probably without reading it or the thread.

It's really no more complex or nefarious than that.

Marc801 C wrote:

Someone thought you were being a jerk in your post and flagged it. Someone on the MP team removed it - probably without reading it or the thread.

It's really no more complex or nefarious than that.

Not sure how a picture of me, where I'm looking feminine, is being a jerk.  My old account was banned right after I posted a few similar things, looks like we've got a bigot or two with the finger on the button here.  Surprised, but not really.

Glowering wrote: e.g. if I go in direct the anchor on a tether. Then I check it (trace the rope from my harness to the anchor and check the biner is locked) then in my mind say "double checked" THEN I call off belay.

Do you weight your tether before calling off belay? I always like to place my full weight on the newly rigged system before dismantling the previous one. For instance, I do a "mini-rappel" prior to unclipping my tether rather than unclipping and then leaning back. Same sequence when going off belay.

Marc801 C wrote:

Someone thought you were being a jerk in your post and flagged it. Someone on the MP team removed it - probably without reading it or the thread.

It's really no more complex or nefarious than that.

Marc,  its burchy hate and we wont stand for it.

Plus whack-a-mole isn't that much fun for anyone.

I think it's horrible to watch other people get hurt.  I can't even watch slasher flicks, etc., which are supposed to be in good fun just because I find that the premise is mean spirited.  Having said that, it's important to understand that if you participate in a dangerous activity such as climbing that you accept the risk of seeing others, or even yourself, get seriously hurt.  Sometimes someone is to blame; other times it's just bad luck.  When I was 14 and had only been climbing for a year I saw the aftermath of a guy who took a groundfall from about 30' up and landed on his side and head.  That was eye opening for lack of a better word but I think I handled it well because I and my friend scrambled up onto a ledge to help the injured climber and his partner while a couple other groups of climbers promptly left.  No kidding.  Perhaps I'm luck in retrospect that witnessing that never really got under my skin in a negative way.  Maybe because I was still new to the sport it instilled the importance of climbing safe.  Of course some of these principles were totally neglected and I survived my own bad judgment.  At the same time, it taught me to accept serious injury or death as as constant companion to what we do.  

Obsessed with saying MILLENNIAL wrote:

Not sure how a picture of me, where I'm looking feminine, is being a jerk.  My old account was banned right after I posted a few similar things, looks like we've got a bigot or two with the finger on the button here.  Surprised, but not really.

Ironically, it’s probably a ..... wait for it ......

GDavis Davis wrote:

Empathy means that, you connect with the emotions of the person that was injured, that's not holding you back it's a human condition. For 'normal' folk. I agree that most people, myself included, can grow from trauma and use it in a positive way, but that's me and a lot of people need more tools than that. I think we can get better at compartmentalizing, at figuring out where to put things, but seeing a crumpled up kid on the floor isn't something you can just put out of your mind with a wave of your hand a quote from Tradiban. 

I don't know what to tell ya, if you don't believe in your god-given abilities then you won't be able to change. The first step is faith. Have faith that you can handle the trauma and the rest will fall into place.