Witnessing people decking...

Hamish Hamish wrote: Can someone please tell me wtf toxic masculinity has to do with the original post and topic?

People react differently to watching someone fall and get badly broken.  The TM flag was thrown during a disagreement over whether a male-advocated “coping mechanism” was truly healthy.

Keilyx Bay wrote: @ Skye Swoboda-Colberg
At this point I am honestly feeling very unsafe and I would mind sharing my most vulnerable life experiences. I didn’t say folks should avoid climbing post trauma. Did you read the blog that was posted earlier in the thread? That person worked through their trauma by asking for support and engaging with their feelings. Love it. To me that’s a far cry from just “getting used to it”.  For the record, my trauma is very real and also unrelated to climbing. Seems like folks are really digging into me now. Willing to hear out other folks perspectives on this. I also think my perspective deserves a seat at the table.

@the raven
I don’t know what your trauma is and don’t claim to. Whatever your traumas are, I believe they are real and in no way intend to discount that. By credentials I meant your work as a behavioral psychologist. Like I said, if you actually care, PM me.

Keilyx, It sounds like you are going through something pretty bad that you haven't figured out how to cope with. This post kind of sounds like a cry for help - you feel unsafe about this thread and where it is taking you, or people having points of view far different from yours? Or you are feeling unsafe in your personal life? Are you asking The Ravin for help, and asking him to PM you? I'm NOT a mental health pro, but your post seems to me that you need to get some help? I'm not trolling or being sarcastic in any way. Call or visit someone, please.

I think people have their own coping mechanisms and if 'getting used to it' by letting it flow through you' works for someone, and that is all they need, that is great. I think that works for me, and has nothing to do with masculinity. In fact the experienced (mostly older women) EMTs, that I used to ride along with to accident scenes where they sometimes had to search for body parts, were experts in letting it flow through them, and coming back then next day as volunteer EMTs. Maybe you are annoyed that some people can seemingly simply 'get used to it' and you are having trouble dealing with something, and have had to try many coping mechanisms? Getting used to it doesn't mean you don't have compassion.

Bill Lawry wrote:

People react differently to watching someone fall and get badly broken.  The TM flag was thrown during a disagreement over whether a male-advocated “coping mechanism” was truly healthy.

Its healthy for soldiers in war, no time for opening up about feelings. 

Its possible to successfully avoid these situations by avoiding easier crags and gyms though. Worked for me for almost 20 years, then one bad day I decided to take the family to a local TR crag and the know it all spraymaster at the wall that day decided to take the fast way down...

Maureen Maguire wrote: Friend of mine who owns a gym says auto belays are inherently unsafe, need maintenance regularly, get recalled regularly and he's considered removing them. 

Your friend's statement refers to the original "rose" autobelays, one failed and they recalled them all for "maintenance" and never sent them back out. The newer devices are required to be sent back each year (maybe every two years) for "maintenance". This of course adds significant cost as shipping them isn't easy. There has NEVER been a device failure (that I'm aware of) with the new devices. 

All of the accidents are from people forgetting to clip in.

The best solution is to have a gate that protrudes out from the wall (the triangle sheets don't work) physically blocking anyone from climbing around it. However, if you have the gates in the middle of the wall with non-autobelays nextdoor people will still for get to clip in and climb the non-autobelay walls. Thus, if the gym has an entire wall they can dedicate to autobelays, side by side, that's the best way to set them up. Although, I have heard of people walking from an autobelay wall to a non-autobelay wall and attempting to climb. (See my post on being "present")

When autobelays were the rage in the beginning I refused to get them after I heard about these accidents. I simply didn't want our gym to be associated with the inevitable carnage.  Talking to other gym managers who did employ autobelays, they were ok with accidents because the autobelays were ultra popular with their members and they weren't going to let a decking or two ruin the fun.

On this topic - coping with trauma, I actually have no universal view. And I have very few judgments on what others have voiced here that works for them ... including just getting used to it.

Mostly, I know people react differently. And that I am not any kind of expert in dealing with the varied facets.

Heading offline to spend time in the hills. Coping?

Edit: My wife - long time hospice nurse, thinks traumatized witnesses need to revisit what happened as many times as they feel they need to. 

Bill Lawry wrote:

People react differently to watching someone fall and get badly broken.  The TM flag was thrown during a disagreement over whether a male-advocated “coping mechanism” was truly healthy.

Mmmkay.  I could see how the old “suck it up” refrain might be male advocated, but male advocated does not always equal toxic masculinity.  I feel like the TM flag is getting thrown quite a lot these days... but perhaps I’m missing a back story on this or just missing something completely.

And +100 to not allowing interruptions during the tie-in and safety check process.

I almost saw something similar happen at my gym: a climber on TR didn't finish his figure eight, just pushed the tail through his hard points and started up the wall. Neither he nor his belayer noticed the error until he was about halfway up the wall (around 30 feet) and the rope pulled out of his harness and swung away from the wall when his belayer took in slack. The climber still didn't notice the error at this point, luckily the surrounding climbers immediately yelled at him and coached him through safely downclimbing.

The whole ordeal could have been much worse. If the belayer had left a little more slack in the system the error might not have been noticed until the climber tried to weight the rope at the top of the climb, potentially decking from the full 60 foot height.

It is ALWAYS important to double check your system. User error is the cause of most climbing accidents. If you are climbing alone (autobelays or rope solo) it is doubly important to check everything, as you don't have the benefit of a second pair of eyes.

BUT championing for the removal of all risks will only neuter the sport. With too much public outcry for safety I can easily see gyms of the future removing autobelays, banning lead climbing, and requiring climbers to be TR belayed by a staff member.

I think the best way to combat accidents is by teaching climbers two main things:
First, hammer home the point that climbing is dangerous and potentially deadly when done incorrectly. Gyms tend to gloss over the risks and too many new climbers seem to think that just because they are in a gym they are safe.
Second, don't be afraid to call people out on dangerous or stupid behavior. It is a lot better to have a briefly awkward "hey, that looks wrong" conversation than to watch someone deck. 

Keilyx Bay wrote: @ Skye Swoboda-Colberg
At this point I am honestly feeling very unsafe and I would mind sharing my most vulnerable life experiences. I didn’t say folks should avoid climbing post trauma. Did you read the blog that was posted earlier in the thread? That person worked through their trauma by asking for support and engaging with their feelings. Love it. To me that’s a far cry from just “getting used to it”.  For the record, my trauma is very real and also unrelated to climbing. Seems like folks are really digging into me now. Willing to hear out other folks perspectives on this. I also think my perspective deserves a seat at the table.

@the raven
I don’t know what your trauma is and don’t claim to. Whatever your traumas are, I believe they are real and in no way intend to discount that. By credentials I meant your work as a behavioral psychologist. Like I said, if you actually care, PM me.

FWIW, I read Tradiban's "you get used to it' comment as rather sarcastic.  Perhaps you are also not familiar with his reputation here?

Hamish Hamish wrote: Mmmkay.  I could see how the old “suck it up” refrain might be male advocated, but male advocated does not always equal toxic masculinity.  I feel like the TM flag is getting thrown quite a lot these days... but perhaps I’m missing a back story on this or just missing something completely.

And +100 to not allowing interruptions during the tie-in and safety check process.

However, "the old 'suck it up' refrain" has been harmful to some, if they are led to believe that's the only acceptable way to deal with their feelings/trauma and that is NOT the way that works for them.  Any time anyone is told there is only one way to deal with something-- whether it's "suck it up" or "why aren't you crying enough?", it can be toxic and unhealthy.

.

I have to admit everyone, yesterday I had a first: partner and I tied in (me on belay), did our checks... lo and behold, I grabbed my carabiner to click it and show it was locked, and bam, it opened.  We both went "ohhhHHHHhhh" and I locked it.  (I know precisely what happened, too.  For some reason yesterday I was doing it a bit differently than normally-- I noticed at the time that it was different-- that I put carabiner through harness and ATC, then threaded the rope through the ATC and through the carabiner, then locked.  Normally I thread ATC first, then put carabiner through harness and both.  So you know how that happened-- I forgot that after the first time I didn't lock it.  I'll definitely be making sure I KISS and do it in my "usual" two-step manner in future, rather than this weird three-step method I managed to pick up yesterday.)  

I also have to admit that after reading this thread, a couple times when we were climbing next to an autobelay and I saw someone clip their kid in, especially if they did so rather quickly, I subtly looked to make sure the carabiner was actually closed (got slightly nervous one time; at our gym, there are two carabiners on the autobelay rope: one is the one you clip into, and the other is so you can have the gate attached still while you clip yourself in {no "trying to keep hold of the autobelay line with one hand and trying to open the twistlock with the other, without letting the line go to snap up to the ceiling" worries.  I like it; I'm klutzy, okay?  At my old gym people would usually pull the line down to the floor and step/kneel on it, then use two hands to clip in.}.  This person had somehow managed to detach the gate carabiner and also clip it to the kid's harness, so at first all I saw was an empty carabiner dangling.  I did see the line moving as the kid started up the wall, so knew they must've also been clipped in, then saw the "real" carabiner was clipped on, just was harder to see from my angle).

Hamish Hamish wrote:

I feel like the TM flag is getting thrown quite a lot these days... but perhaps I’m missing a back story on this or just missing something completely.

Nah. I think we just need to replace TM with I-am-the-most-important-person-in-the-room-right-now-inity “. ;)

Katia M wrote:

FWIW, I read Tradiban's "you get used to it' comment as rather sarcastic.  Perhaps you are also not familiar with his reputation here?

Nah, I was serious.

Listen, if you don't believe you can control your emotional reactions to events, you will never be able to control your emotional reactions to events. Got that?

You may have to go to therapy, or get medication, or witness trauma over and over, or get divorced, or live in your car, or start painting, or read books, or whatever...but eventually you will see that the kid on the floor with the broken bones has the problem, not you.

If you feel bad about the victims predicament, do something meaningful for them. Call 911, bring them cake in the hospital, start a GOFundMe, help them with disability paperwork, buy them some movies, drive them to doctor's appointments, call them and just "check in". To worry about how the incident effects you is self-centered and narcissistic.

Once you have some experience or you know these truths you can control your emotional reactions to traumatic incidents, ergo, you "get used to it".

"Wear your tragedies as armor, not shackles"

             -Tradiban

Nah. Just cope in a way that works best - scratch that - is tailored for you. :)

No universal prescription. No TM. No IATMIPITRRN-inity . ;)

Tradiban wrote:
You may have to go to therapy, or get medication, or witness trauma over and over, or get divorced, or live in your car, or start painting, or read books, or whatever...but eventually you will see that the kid on the floor with the broken bones has the problem, not you.

I work often with an ER doc of 20 years. Some things you don't get used to. 

Maybe they need to visit the Tradiban school of spectrum disorders, but maybe too humans are empathic and despite our best efforts the wiring we are each uniquely born with can't always be rerouted. Some can, most can, many should, but humanity is more diverse than that. 

Matt Wilson wrote:

No, look.  Everyone is saying this but its not answering the question.  How do you climb a wall with the strap from the autobelay being in your way for more or less every move and not have something in your brain click?  I mean I could understand forgetting to tie in and then just start climbing (kind of) because after tying in for top rope the climb feels exactly the same as if you forgot altogether.  But there is literally something *in your way* the *whole way up* when you forgot to clip in to an autobelay.  It makes the climb anything BUT routine.

Again, I get that it *does* happen, and I can see forgetting the step of clipping in, but I (and many others here) don't understand how you are then able to climb 30+ feet while having a reminder in your face the entire way without realizing your mistake.

How? Autobelay routes are on the same wall as lead and TR routes at the gym that I climb in. Because of that the autobelay line is usually 10ft away from the wall attached to a weight bag, the warning triangle is on the floor in these instances. Hence, you can get on the autobelay route without the line interfering until you’re at the top.

I’m one of these knuckleheads that didn’t clip in autobelay, but I was luckier than the OPs guy. I was waiting for someone to finish the route I wanted to do, got on the wall and started climbing, got to the top and was about to fall. But this time instead of just falling I reached out and grabbed a nearby jug and realized that I wasn’t clipped in. There was a TR rope near by, I grabbed it and walked myself down hand over hand. Funny thing is, when I got down, these 3 guys were looking at me wild eyed and I don’t know if they witnessed the whole thing and didn’t stop me from climbing. Yes, I was listening to music, which might have contributed to the incident. Bottom line is I spaced out in the least forgiving moment. By sheer luck, I’m still alive. 

Tradiban wrote:

Nah, I was serious.

Listen, if you don't believe you can control your emotional reactions to events, you will never be able to control your emotional reactions to events. Got that?

You may have to go to therapy, or get medication, or witness trauma over and over, or get divorced, or live in your car, or start painting, or read books, or whatever...but eventually you will see that the kid on the floor with the broken bones has the problem, not you.

If you feel bad about the victims predicament, do something meaningful for them. Call 911, bring them cake in the hospital, start a GOFundMe, help them with disability paperwork, buy them some movies, drive them to doctor's appointments, call them and just "check in". To worry about how the incident effects you is self-centered and narcissistic.

Once you have some experience or you know these truths you can control your emotional reactions to traumatic incidents, ergo, you "get used to it".

"Wear your tragedies as armor, not shackles"

             -Tradiban

I think you're mixing up me and the person I was replying to.  I never spoke of my ability, or lack thereof, or anything in between, to "control {my} emotional reactions to events."

Katia M wrote: 
I think you're mixing up me and the person I was replying to.  I never spoke of my ability, or lack thereof, or anything in between, to "control {my} emotional reactions to events."

The "you" refers to people in general, no one specific.

GDavis Davis wrote:
Maybe they need to visit the Tradiban school of spectrum disorders, but maybe too humans are empathic and despite our best efforts the wiring we are each uniquely born with can't always be rerouted. Some can, most can, many should, but humanity is more diverse than that.

It's not empathy that's holding you back, it's your interpretation of how you think society expects you to feel after an accident. It is empathy that allows you to act positively for the victim and set aside your personal issues.

The paradox of trauma is that it has both the power to destroy and the power to transform and resurrect. You choose the result.
                  -Tradiban

Maureen Maguire wrote: Friend of mine who owns a gym says auto belays are inherently unsafe, need maintenance regularly, get recalled regularly and he's considered removing them. 

Anyone have numbers on how many autobelay malfunction accidents there have been?  (not counting people who forget to clip in)

Tradiban wrote:

Nah, I was serious.

Listen, if you don't believe you can control your emotional reactions to events, you will never be able to control your emotional reactions to events. Got that?

You may have to go to therapy, or get medication, or witness trauma over and over, or get divorced, or live in your car, or start painting, or read books, or whatever...but eventually you will see that the kid on the floor with the broken bones has the problem, not you.

If you feel bad about the victims predicament, do something meaningful for them. Call 911, bring them cake in the hospital, start a GOFundMe, help them with disability paperwork, buy them some movies, drive them to doctor's appointments, call them and just "check in". To worry about how the incident effects you is self-centered and narcissistic.

Once you have some experience or you know these truths you can control your emotional reactions to traumatic incidents, ergo, you "get used to it".

"Wear your tragedies as armor, not shackles"

             -Tradiban

For some reason seeing a body drop in a gym means less to me than seeing a body drop at the crag.  Maybe there is something wrong with me?

Fehim Hasecic wrote:

Yes, I was listening to music, which might have contributed to the incident. 

Bottom line is I spaced out in the least forgiving moment. By sheer luck, I’m still alive. 

Years ago, our gym had a compound fracture on an auto belay route sans belay. For a while, ear buds were banned.  Now, after the owner opened a new (replacement) gym, one ear bud is allowed - I think a compromise because people objected.

Hamish Hamish wrote: Can someone please tell me wtf toxic masculinity has to do with the original post and topic?

I have no desire to get into a debate about toxic masculinity on MP. I would like to point out that toxic masculinity is not just a fancy way to say "a man acted like a jerk." It's about a set of damaging cultural expectations of what it means to be a man. The Good Men Project defines it this way: "Toxic masculinity is a narrow and repressive description of manhood, designating manhood as defined by violence, sex, status and aggression. It’s the cultural ideal of manliness, where strength is everything while emotions are a weakness; where sex and brutality are yardsticks by which men are measured, while supposedly “feminine” traits – which can range from emotional vulnerability to simply not being hypersexual – are the means by which your status as “man” can be taken away."

I believe toxic masculinity got brought up in reference to the idea that a person witnessing a traumatic accident should learn to stuff down their emotions and get over it....that admitting vulnerability or an emotional reaction is weakness and that it's better to be stoic and detached in the face of tragedy. I don't especially want to participate in this argument - just trying to avoid unhelpful detours into the gender wars. All genders are impacted by this cultural baggage. 

Climbing is dangerous, if you do it long enough you are likely to see someone totally f#cked up or die (I've seen 7 die in my 50+ years) and either you get over it and learn or give up climbing.
 The OP, either get over it (teenagers do dumb shit) or sue him for mental anguish and the cost of therapy so he can never afford to climb again.