Quark vs Nomic

ryan Smith wrote: Kevin, have you found that you like the quark for steep ice better then any other aggressive tools, like x dreams? And what do you think the advantages of a quark are over a nomics for alpine? Other then piolet, because i really don't mind carrying a third tool, at least not yet.

Thanks

I absolutely HATE x dreams, leashed tools climb better than x dreams in my opinion. So yes, I'd take a quark over x dreams for almost all ice climbs, however the bd cobra is my all time favourite pure ice tool. Where the quark isnt the best is weird hooking, in that regard nomics and x dreams have an advantage. As for alpine advantages...

1. Dead man anchors are way simpler to make with a stacked grip tool
2. Less aggressive angle is nice for endless low angle calf burning alpine ice
3. Plunging being the main reason, carrying another axe is a pretty big weight penalty.

PS. I have climbed around 60 pitches of ice, mixed, and drytooling on x dreams. The picks cleaned like poop and they flexed like damn noodles on mixed, not to mention they shift a lot. So yes, my hatred is based on experience with them. But that is only my opinion.

Funny i love my x dreams on steep ice and mixed routes, for me they clean much esier then my nomics, i have bent a pick though. Thanks for the in-site, think its about time i ditch my 3 tool set up, and get some quarks. How are they for pounding pickets and pins? 

ryan Smith wrote: Funny i love my x dreams on steep ice and mixed routes, for me they clean much esier then my nomics, i have bent a pick though. Thanks for the in-site, think its about time i ditch my 3 tool set up, and get some quarks. How are they for pounding pickets and pins? 

I find them pretty easy for hammering. The petzl hammer is a decent size and is fairly offset from the shaft.

Great you probably just made me spend 500 bucks. thanks alot

Try both of them if you can and decide which swing and features( adze, hammer) work for you.  You can climb almost any ice w/ both, almost the only difference between a quark and nomic is the offset handgrip.  But trying tools out makes a world of difference, most people prefer certain swings over others, as you can see from previous comments.  But I think/guesss WI6 can be climbed w/ technique on any ice tool made nowadays,  it depends on how many tools you want to own.  A quark and two nomics should get you through anything except steep ass mixed climbing (although you can do M9-10 at least w/ nomics.)  

Kevin - interesting shade thrown on the x dream. I have had them for 4 seasons or so, and climbed up to wi5/m8 or so.  Cleaning them was never too bad, but I hated the crap steel on the stock mixte picked. Howey picks were a game changer.  

The only thing I don’t like compared to the nomics is the slightly longer grip rest, which sometimes hits bulges while swinging.  Otherwise, an x dream with pick weights is a fantastic tool for steep ice, and leashed tools really are an inferior setup.  Your comfort with leashes tools may be playing in here.

I do like Nomics, but the swing radius and the grip just never felt as comfortable as my x dreams.

But for my money, if I were climbing in the cascades and had a long snow alpine approach with some true, steep ice, I would would carry a super light skimo axe (I have the grivel alp evo air or something), and have tools on the pack.  I’ve swung quarks plenty - you can climb steep ice with them, but nomics, x dreams, tech machines, etc really are superior when ice gets steep.

Cassin X-All Mountain is a good hybrid when comparing a Nomic and a Quark.  For steep ice, most likely what you'll encounter in northern Michigan, I'd go with the Nomic.  I've climbed with both the Nomic and X-All & they're both great tools.

Colin OBrien wrote: Kevin - interesting shade thrown on the x dream. I have had them for 4 seasons or so, and climbed up to wi5/m8 or so.  Cleaning them was never too bad, but I hated the crap steel on the stock mixte picked. Howey picks were a game changer.  

The only thing I don’t like compared to the nomics is the slightly longer grip rest, which sometimes hits bulges while swinging.  Otherwise, an x dream with pick weights is a fantastic tool for steep ice, and leashed tools really are an inferior setup.  Your comfort with leashes tools may be playing in here.

I do like Nomics, but the swing radius and the grip just never felt as comfortable as my x dreams.

But for my money, if I were climbing in the cascades and had a long snow alpine approach with some true, steep ice, I would would carry a super light skimo axe (I have the grivel alp evo air or something), and have tools on the pack.  I’ve swung quarks plenty - you can climb steep ice with them, but nomics, x dreams, tech machines, etc really are superior when ice gets steep.

I am not comfortable on leashed tools at all, I just really dont get along with x dream. Nomics, tech machines, and most other tools I've tried have been great, but not the x dreams, I just cant see past my issues with them. I will admit the handle is tits though, cassin nailed that at least.

However ice tools are super subjective so it's kind of pointless to argue about in the first place. It's also pointless to reccomend tools over the internet. So for the OP, try a shitload of tools first, then choose. Ice tool recommendation threads typically result in a bunch of random peoples opinions that may or may not apply to you.

If you were a ball sport athlete in high school (very few  of us that I run into climbing) you’ll rock the quark very quickly on steep ice. The swing mimics throwing. Some (myself included)  say the some of the older Charlet tools have yet to be bested for pure steep pillars. The masters of pure ice figured out the game years ago.

To get back to your original question, buy Quarks unless you want to make the investment of two sets of tools. Nobody’s mentioned this, but if you are training or climbing steep WI, remove the adze for safety; you won’t notice a difference with the swing (at least I don’t). When you might need to clear ice, etc., for pro, put the adze back on. I love my Quarks. (Disclaimer: Nomics are on my Christmas list! ;)

https://www.thealpinestart.com/2018/10/07/field-tested-petzl-nomic-ergonomic/

Check out the x-all’s. More aggressive than the quark and can still self arrest. Plus you can pick them up pretty cheap which is nice for your first tool. 

If you go for the Quarks.........

DITCH THE HAMMERS AND USE THE PICK WEIGHTS!!!!!!!

There's a reason the Nomic is set up this way.

Martin Brzozowskiwrote: Hi all,

I'm getting into ice climbing as well as mountaineering. I live in Michigan and don't get out much, there is ice climbing up north. but once or twice a year, I fly out to Washington and climb some peaks. I'm starting to get into steeper stuff out west, but I'm mainly going to climb WI up north. Given this, would you say I should pick up Quarks or Nomics?

Hey, want to bump this up again. I am facing the same question years later. What did you get finally? 

I went with nomics since I mostly climb steeper WI here in MI. I just picked up some north machines for easier stuff and alpine climbing, haven't used them yet, but I have a feeling I will love them

Martin Brzozowskiwrote:

I went with nomics since I mostly climb steeper WI here in MI. I just picked up some north machines for easier stuff and alpine climbing, haven't used them yet, but I have a feeling I will love them

Thanks!

Martin Brzozowskiwrote: Hi all,

I'm getting into ice climbing as well as mountaineering. I live in Michigan and don't get out much, there is ice climbing up north. but once or twice a year, I fly out to Washington and climb some peaks. I'm starting to get into steeper stuff out west, but I'm mainly going to climb WI up north. Given this, would you say I should pick up Quarks or Nomics?

As a former East-Coaster (Ice climbing in Ontario and the Adirondacks) and current West-Coaster (climbing in BC and WA), I'd say go with the Nomics and get a classic ice axe. For reference, I own Nomics and Quarks and a classic axe and have used them on various mountaineering and multi-pitch ice routes up to WI4.

As someone mentioned above, the Northeast Ice tends to be short and steep. The Nomics will serve you best close to home. Get out there and rack up as much mileage as possible, dialing in your steep ice game.

For your trips out West, you'll want to significantly dial back the technical grade of the climbing because there's a lot more objective hazard to contend with. My advice is to choose less technical routes while you learn about avalanches, mountain weather, long-route efficiency, etc... It's a whole other skillset that you need to develop in parallel to your steep ice technique. Getting on difficult ice climbs in the alpine without that broader general mountaineering experience is a good way to kill yourself.

Assuming your future goals involve true alpine climbing in the PNW, you'll probably want Quarks (or North Machines or similar) at some point down the road. But in the short term, my recommendation is to invest in the tools best suited to work on those pre-requisite building blocks - which in my opinion are Nomics for the East and a mountaineering axe for the West. Then get the Quarks when you're ready to synthesize that experience to try objectives that are both technically difficult and more hazardous.

*Edit with final thought* - I'm not saying ice climbing in the NE is a "safe" activity by any means. Just saying that ice climbing is a totally different beast when you have the mega overhead hazard and long days/changing weather that you find in the big mountains. You can push the limits of safety when you're well within your technical ability and you can push the limits of technical ability when conditions are safer, but you definitely should not be pushing the limits of safety and technical ability at the same time.

johndricowrote:

As a former East-Coaster (Ice climbing in Ontario and the Adirondacks) and current West-Coaster (climbing in BC and WA), I'd say go with the Nomics and get a classic ice axe. For reference, I own Nomics and Quarks and a classic axe and have used them on various mountaineering and multi-pitch ice routes up to WI4.

As someone mentioned above, the Northeast Ice tends to be short and steep. The Nomics will serve you best close to home. Get out there and rack up as much mileage as possible, dialing in your steep ice game.

For your trips out West, you'll want to significantly dial back the technical grade of the climbing because there's a lot more objective hazard to contend with. My advice is to choose less technical routes while you learn about avalanches, mountain weather, long-route efficiency, etc... It's a whole other skillset that you need to develop in parallel to your steep ice technique. Getting on difficult ice climbs in the alpine without that broader general mountaineering experience is a good way to kill yourself.

Assuming your future goals involve true alpine climbing in the PNW, you'll probably want Quarks (or North Machines or similar) at some point down the road. But in the short term, my recommendation is to invest in the tools best suited to work on those pre-requisite building blocks - which in my opinion are Nomics for the East and a mountaineering axe for the West. Then get the Quarks when you're ready to synthesize that experience to try objectives that are both technically difficult and more hazardous.

*Edit with final thought* - I'm not saying ice climbing in the NE is a "safe" activity by any means. Just saying that ice climbing is a totally different beast when you have the mega overhead hazard and long days/changing weather that you find in the big mountains. You can push the limits of safety when you're well within your technical ability and you can push the limits of technical ability when conditions are safer, but you definitely should not be pushing the limits of safety and technical ability at the same time.

Thanks, I made this post like over a year ago (my first post!) and what you said is pretty much the path that I'm following. Thank you for the advice, especially as I can now lead easy ice and plan out heading out west this winter. I started with Nomics and just added north machines to my collection, taking an avy course in Jan

Martin Brzozowskiwrote:

Thanks, I made this post like over a year ago (my first post!) and what you said is pretty much the path that I'm following. Thank you for the advice, especially as I can now lead easy ice and plan out heading out west this winter. I started with Nomics and just added north machines to my collection, taking an avy course in Jan

That's great!

Have you been watching the Avalanche Canada 2020/21 Webinar Series?

Crack a beer and feast on this: 

Martin Brzozowskiwrote:

I went with nomics since I mostly climb steeper WI here in MI. I just picked up some north machines for easier stuff and alpine climbing, haven't used them yet, but I have a feeling I will love them

you will love them