What belay device should you use?

Grigri (donned by someone who knows how to use it) for everything absent having two followers.  Keep it simple by using a time-proven device.

On the "use what you are most familiar with" concept, I once got dropped in the gym when taking a lead fall by a guy not paying attention who had been climbing for 30+ years and uses an ATC exclusively. Given the facts of the situation, I almost certainly would not have been dropped if he were using an assisted device.  So the "use what you are most familiar with" only goes so far.  I now don't like being belayed by non-assisted devices, regardless of the user's familiarity with it.

That excerpt from Freedom of the Hills, 3rd ed., I wonder what devices they are referring to.  The only belay device I remember from that time (1974) is a stitcht plate.  Were there others?

m Mobes wrote:

Leave the king alone, he had 50 prostate exams in a row yesterday and his finger is worked

anyone who appreciates robot chicken is OK in my book!!

Nathan Sullivan wrote: Hmm, wonder what FoTH 3rd was advocating in place of devices - hip belay?  Munter?  Or, does "mechanical" only refer to GriGri type devices and it's totally cool to use a tube device or 8?

My understanding is that it the FoTH at that time would only have referred to a hip belay, not a Munter.

While it would be reasonable to think Munter has been used for a long time since it only uses a carabiner and rope (both of which have been around for a long time), my belief is that  is not how things unfolded, at least in the US, and that Munter was not widely used in the US (if at all) until after belay devices were already in wide use. (But I could be wrong--while I'm becoming an old timer if not already one, when I started climbing in the early 90s, belay devices were used for standard rock climbing, and hip belay only for mountaineering.  The Munter was known, but not common.)

Bob Harrington wrote: That excerpt from Freedom of the Hills, 3rd ed., I wonder what devices they are referring to.  The only belay device I remember from that time (1974) is a stitcht plate.  Were there others?

Sticht plate 1968, Italian (Munter) hitch 1971 and the original assisted braking device the Salewa Antz in 1980's. The fig. 8 was used the same time as the Sticht plate.

Still once again disappointed to not see the 4 true catagories

• Passive assisted (smart, pivot, etc) 
• Active assisted (grigri, eddy, lifeguard, etc) 
• Auto locking (revo)
• Passive unassisted (any standard tube) 

I think an article such as what was posted gives a great over simplification on the nuances of these catagories what they mean and how the devices are best utilised, what works well and what doesn't. Enough regurgitation give people some data rather than just opinions. I'll write it for you if you're too lazy to actually do the research and properly break it down. 

pfwein wrote: While it would be reasonable to think Munter has been used for a long time since it only uses a carabiner and rope (both of which have been around for a long time), my belief is that  is not how things unfolded, at least in the US, and that Munter was not widely used in the US (if at all) until after belay devices were already in wide use. (But I could be wrong--while I'm becoming an old timer if not already one, when I started climbing in the early 90s, belay devices were used for standard rock climbing, and hip belay only for mountaineering.  The Munter was known, but not common.)

I was under the impression that the "palm up" style of teaching how to properly handle the rope when belaying was done because of the fact that the munter locks when the strands are parallel rather than by pulling the rope around your hips which most all other devices require. The transition to the PBUS method of teaching belaying was adopted because of the prevalence of mechanical belay devices rather than the munter My point being that it seem difficult to believe that a style of belay was taught by so many places all over the country that it would indicate that the munter was in greater use than known but uncommon. All info from hearsay so I'm sure I'm completely incorrect. 

So what’s the answer?

Can we get an REI salesperson in here and just solve this now?

Colonel Mustard wrote: So what’s the answer?

Can we get an REI salesperson in here and just solve this now?

The one that is heaviest. You know that thing is the best because it is heavy as *beep*... means quality parts.

It has to have as many different configurations for use possible. If you can't belay seven people at once, use it as a chair, and open a beer with the bottle opener, well, you should upgrade.

No REI representative needed. You really want to muddy the waters discussing colors, who is awesome and climbs with that other person who is awesome, and *beep*? Those are personal preferences.

that guy named seb wrote: Still once again disappointed to not see the 4 true catagories

• Passive assisted (smart, pivot, etc) 
• Active assisted (grigri, eddy, lifeguard, etc) 
• Auto locking (revo)
• Passive unassisted (any standard tube) 

I think an article such as what was posted gives a great over simplification on the nuances of these catagories what they mean and how the devices are best utilised, what works well and what doesn't. Enough regurgitation give people some data rather than just opinions. I'll write it for you if you're too lazy to actually do the research and properly break it down. 

Hmm, your use of "passive" and "active" is dubious and the Revo isn't an Auto locking belay device, when belaying it should never lock, if it does the belayer has failed.

thanks for your advice! 

Jim Titt wrote:

Hmm, your use of "passive" and "active" is dubious and the Revo isn't an Auto locking belay device, when belaying it should never lock, if it does the belayer has failed.

Passive relies is the inherant geometry of the device to grab the rope, active relies on a changing geometry of the device to grab the rope, seems fine to me, if you have any critism of my catagorisation other than "dubious" I do value feedback especially from someone as qualified as your self. 

The revo is an auto locking device in the sense that it reliably engages in a fall with out the need for a belayer to actually belay and the fact that it's essentially a giant pulley means the belayer doesn't really even need to pay out slack, this is as close to automatic as you can get in a belay device. You could attach a bolt at the bottom of a climb and rely on a revo to catch a fall 99.9999% of the time, the same can't be said about devices such as the cinch, grigri or other active assisted breaking devices. 

a d wrote: Grigri (donned by someone who knows how to use it) for everything absent having two followers.  Keep it simple by using a time-proven device.

On the "use what you are most familiar with" concept, I once got dropped in the gym when taking a lead fall by a guy not paying attention who had been climbing for 30+ years and uses an ATC exclusively. Given the facts of the situation, I almost certainly would not have been dropped if he were using an assisted device.  So the "use what you are most familiar with" only goes so far.  I now don't like being belayed by non-assisted devices, regardless of the user's familiarity with it.

Interesting. I'm exactly the opposite - I trust people using assisted braking devices less. Too many morons thinking that assisted braking = auto locking, so they can just let go of the braking strand. If you're a shit belayer, getting a Grigri won't fix your problem - you'll just turn into a shit belayer with a Grigri.

kevin deweese wrote:

I was under the impression that the "palm up" style of teaching how to properly handle the rope when belaying was done because of the fact that the munter locks when the strands are parallel rather

I believe that the 'original' palm up belaying technique was applied in the hip belay.  It allows a more natural and longer wrap across the stomach.  When Sticht plates (and tubers, atc,, etc) appeared, the belay biner went vertically through the swami belt, and then vertically through  the harness belt, and the rope feed/brake was still left/right, not up/down.  So people stayed with their existing palm up technique.  Switching to palm down would have improved braking strength, but would have also inhibited rope take-in/feed-out speed.  That is used frequently, while it is pretty rare that you have to hold more than 2-3x  your body weight.

When the belay loop appeared, then the biner orientation became horizontal and the rope travel direction switched to up/down.  I do not remember any discussion in the magazines or among friends at the necessity of learning a new belay style, although there should have been.

That's how I remember it.

kevin deweese wrote:

the fact that the munter locks when the strands are parallel 

Munter locks off in both orientations. 

that guy named seb wrote:

Passive relies is the inherant geometry of the device to grab the rope, active relies on a changing geometry of the device to grab the rope, seems fine to me, if you have any critism of my catagorisation other than "dubious" I do value feedback especially from someone as qualified as your self. 

The revo is an auto locking device in the sense that it reliably engages in a fall with out the need for a belayer to actually belay and the fact that it's essentially a giant pulley means the belayer doesn't really even need to pay out slack, this is as close to automatic as you can get in a belay device. You could attach a bolt at the bottom of a climb and rely on a revo to catch a fall 99.9999% of the time, the same can't be said about devices such as the cinch, grigri or other active assisted breaking devices. 

Well they are neither passive in the human sense (the belayer must do something to make them lock) nor in the mechanical sense (the body must move relative to the karabiner to provide braking) so it's hard to see why passive comes into the description. Belaying with the Revo the device never locks, that is a fail-safe function and correctly used should never come into operation, ergo it is not a self-locking belay device.

that guy named seb wrote:

Passive relies is the inherant geometry of the device to grab the rope, active relies on a changing geometry of the device to grab the rope, seems fine to me, if you have any critism of my catagorisation other than "dubious" I do value feedback especially from someone as qualified as your self. 

The revo is an auto locking device in the sense that it reliably engages in a fall with out the need for a belayer to actually belay and the fact that it's essentially a giant pulley means the belayer doesn't really even need to pay out slack, this is as close to automatic as you can get in a belay device. You could attach a bolt at the bottom of a climb and rely on a revo to catch a fall 99.9999% of the time, the same can't be said about devices such as the cinch, grigri or other active assisted breaking devices. 

Seb, you need to keep quiet and let the experts explain to you how things work. Jim already took you to the woodshed once on this thread, don't embarrass yourself further.

Andrei Steclaru wrote:

Interesting. I'm exactly the opposite - I trust people using assisted braking devices less. Too many morons thinking that assisted braking = auto locking, so they can just let go of the braking strand. If you're a shit belayer, getting a Grigri won't fix your problem - you'll just turn into a shit belayer with a Grigri.

Key words in my post being "knows how to use it".

Latro wrote:

I believe that the 'original' palm up belaying technique was applied in the hip belay.  It allows a more natural and longer wrap across the stomach.  When Sticht plates (and tubers, atc,, etc) appeared, the belay biner went vertically through the swami belt, and then vertically through  the harness belt, and the rope feed/brake was still left/right, not up/down.  So people stayed with their existing palm up technique.  Switching to palm down would have improved braking strength, but would have also inhibited rope take-in/feed-out speed.  That is used frequently, while it is pretty rare that you have to hold more than 2-3x  your body weight.

When the belay loop appeared, then the biner orientation became horizontal and the rope travel direction switched to up/down.  I do not remember any discussion in the magazines or among friends at the necessity of learning a new belay style, although there should have been.

That's how I remember it.

That makes sense.

amarius wrote:
Munter locks off in both orientations.

My apologies, the munter locks with the highest amount of friction when the strands are parallel.

BigFeet wrote:

The one that is heaviest. You know that thing is the best because it is heavy as *beep*... means quality parts.

It has to have as many different configurations for use possible. If you can't belay seven people at once, use it as a chair, and open a beer with the bottle opener, well, you should upgrade.

No REI representative needed. You really want to muddy the waters discussing colors, who is awesome and climbs with that other person who is awesome, and *beep*? Those are personal preferences.