is this cheating? or safer?

I don't have an opinion on the device, but that bolt that he clipped it to sounds like it was placed in some super hollow rock!  That's what I'd be worried about.

When does this de-evolve into whether or not clipping beyond arms reach is top roping or not?

Paul Deger wrote: When does this de-evolve into whether or not clipping beyond arms reach is top roping or not?

"Arm's reach?"  Shit, clipping above your tie-in point is top roping.

Its not cheating unless it's a woman climbing and your at the back   

We should get Lynn Hill one she is short and is a sport climber I think not having one is holding her back

If you need this you can always tape or rubber band a stick or pen (remove the ink) nail file whatever to your dogbones. Sure the gate won't stay open but it works. When you do get to the bolt though trade it out for your untampered with QD and re rack your stiffy

What is that saying?

If you can't reach the next hold, climb to it?

Same goes for bolts. You can either lead the route as it is, or you can't. Clip sticks, stiff quickdraws... you're only cheating yourself. I'd rather top rope the route until I can lead it clean than use any helpers.

Andrei Steclaru wrote: Clip sticks, stiff quickdraws... you're only cheating yourself. I'd rather top rope the route until I can lead it clean than use any helpers.

FYI - not every route can bet set-up as top rope without leading it first. Unless you mean someone ELSE would lead it for you, but then you would be using helpers.

amarius wrote:

FYI - not every route can bet set-up as top rope without leading it first. Unless you mean someone ELSE would lead it for you, but then you would be using helpers.

Yes, you are correct - but in that case I wouldn't be claiming that I have led the route. 

Use whatever you want: clip stick all the way to the top if you need to; just don't claim that you have led the route.

I have the Kong Prog (basically the same thing but probably better) and I use it way more than I thought I would. It feels like cheating and I love every damn second! So funny to hear a “traditional” take on sport clipping though, lol!

Colonel Mustard wrote: So funny to hear a “traditional” take on sport clipping though, lol!

I know - next thing in "proper ethics" - lead does not count if quick draws are not the same length as FA! 

Bolting is all over the place. I have climbed routes that were obviously bolted by a tall climber, with the bolt placed within a tall man's reach from a good jug, forcing shorter climbers to move up further into awkward positions. I also recently climbed a route with very poorly thought out bolt placements that forced the climber to clip mid crux regardless of height.

My point is that it is all up to your personal views. Nobody in this forum is a pro, so in reality none of our achievements matter outside of our personal sphere. Maybe if Ondra claimed a new world's hardest onsight using a whole rack of these it would be a little different, but who knows.

If you are doing all the moves free, clipping the bolts, and having fun then you sent the climb. Go spray about it to your friends. 

Cole Paiement wrote: 
My point is that it is all up to your personal views. 

Semi-Rad: There's No Cheating in Climbing, Only Lying BRENDAN LEONARD

Cole Paiement wrote:I also recently climbed a route with very poorly thought out bolt placements that forced the climber to clip mid crux regardless of height.

Obviously cheating, just as using non-passive protection when trad climbing is also cheating.

How is using that any different than stick clipping the first bolt, which used to be frowned upon, but seems to be rather standard practice now?

Probably going to need to get a flextrek 37Trillion to carry these around tbh. 

Tradiban wrote:

Nope, just unnecessary.

Speak for yourself tall man:) I was happy to have it for the first bolt on Such a Savage. Albeit the left ramp.

"When you remove the risk, you remove the challenge. When you remove the challenge, you wither on the vine." - Alex Lowe

Keep a few in a quiver on your back.