Really? We can't talk about where gear is manufactured?

curt86iroc wrote:

well, this was poor timing: https://www.reddit.com/r/climbing/comments/cengvw/black_diamond_laid_off_120_manufacturers/

to be fair, i can't verify this outside of Reddit...

Someone asked about it in the Utah Climbers FB group; still unverified.

Is it still racist to be avoid PRC goods but not ROC goods?

Rokjox Teleski wrote: The manufacture of much stuff now and climbing gear in particular requires massive investment in facilities.  Those machines, very specialized once started are run continuously to recoup the massive investment, and it actually matters little what the price of anything is, as long as the stuff is selling at some price, the electric is left on.  This means ultimately that a factory will do anything to gain just about all the sales in the world, under whatever trademarks it can get.  The efficiencies of this means that almost nobody will try and compete, as teh factory is more than willing to build their stuff cheaper than they could build it themselves anyway.

China makes almost all the bicycle chain in the world.  Uncounted billions of miles, and from just a few factories.  Endless chain.

This is true. DMM makes products for at least four other outdoor companies, just to keep the factory running during slow periods. Some of those deals are barely even profitable for DMM, but they need to keep their knowledgeable staff employed. 

Marc801 C wrote:

Someone asked about it in the Utah Climbers FB group; still unverified.

seems to be legit... https://imgur.com/Q3J6yrG

Ryan Williams wrote:

This is true. DMM makes products for at least four other outdoor companies, just to keep the factory running during slow periods. Some of those deals are barely even profitable for DMM, but they need to keep their knowledgeable staff employed. 

DMM <3

curt86iroc wrote:

seems to be legit... https://imgur.com/Q3J6yrG

Can anyone shed some light on the new carabiners BD is launching for next year? I know there's a thread somewhere that posted the patent for a new keylock wiregate carabiner that will replace the OZ, but if someone has more information about the next carabiner line-up, that would be great. Someone who had the chance to attend Outdoor Retailer or ISPO. From what I read on Reddit and elsewhere, the move overseas is to have their new carabiners manufactured in Taiwan and they're apparently revamping the entire carabiner line.

curt86iroc wrote:

seems to be legit... https://imgur.com/Q3J6yrG

Yep. Just saw that a few minutes ago. TFPU.

Khoi wrote:

I argue that BD had way more trouble with quality control in the US than they did in China.

When they moved production back to the US the vast majority of product lines that came out of their Utah factory got recalled.

How many recalls came from the China factory?

I know that the BD Honnold Signature Spatula has no quality control issues, as it was QA'd by Alex himself   

that guy named seb wrote:

rather than going into the mainly nuances of income inequality i'll just show you how your clearly incorrect. turn of the 20th century all the manufacturing was localised, income inequality was it's highest ever. Low wage manufacturing jobs in the states would have little impact on billionaires, just how the low wage workers at mcdonalds aren't helping to reduce income inequality, manufacturing wouldn't help either.

Among the millions of manufacturing jobs that was lost in  a single generation were many very high paying union jobs.  Many of those also had excellent benefits.  The value of those losses on the wealth of the working class cannot be blithely swept away.  This was a substantial blow to the economy.  Compounding this was The end of wage growth as the vast oversupply of factory workers now competed for the remaining factory jobs.   If you need any evidence of the lack of wage growth just look at today’s debate on the minimum wage.

I worked at BD from about 1991 to 2000. In that time I worked in the warehouse, as a raw material buyer and production planner, then in the retail shop. When I was a buyer and production planner, they built all their carabiners, cams, ice screws, stoppers, hexes and such in house. Raw materials, extrusions, thermoforms, etc. bought from local when possible or otherwise American manufacturers. At that time, they even set up their own sewing shop in house to produce harnesses and chalkbags. When they moved from Ventura, about 60 employees picked up and moved with them. I would say that, at the time I was involved with them, they were the embodiment of the notion of an American company buying and sourcing and manufacturing locally, looking out for their employees with good pay and benefits, and absolutely contributed to their community. After I left to pursue other work, I quit paying attention to the industry. I don't care to debate what they did later or now, because frankly I didn't pay attention. But I was absolutely proud to be a part of an organization that I believed in during those years.

Of course the big irony here is where the things you are posting, protesting or otherwise beaming from are made.  Care to make a guess??  

Ha Ha Ha on you retentive borrower.

coldfinger wrote: Of course the big irony here is where the things you are posting, protesting or otherwise beaming from are made.  Care to make a guess??  

Ha Ha Ha on you retentive borrower.

My Complainitron 4000 was made in Foxconnistan.

LL2 wrote: I worked at BD from about 1991 to 2000. In that time I worked in the warehouse, as a raw material buyer and production planner, then in the retail shop. When I was a buyer and production planner, they built all their carabiners, cams, ice screws, stoppers, hexes and such in house. Raw materials, extrusions, thermoforms, etc. bought from local when possible or otherwise American manufacturers. At that time, they even set up their own sewing shop in house to produce harnesses and chalkbags. When they moved from Ventura, about 60 employees picked up and moved with them. I would say that, at the time I was involved with them, they were the embodiment of the notion of an American company buying and sourcing and manufacturing locally, looking out for their employees with good pay and benefits, and absolutely contributed to their community. After I left to pursue other work, I quit paying attention to the industry. I don't care to debate what they did later or now, because frankly I didn't pay attention. But I was absolutely proud to be a part of an organization that I believed in during those years.

That was before they were bought out. I’ve been through corporate buyouts and take overs. They are ugly and then you’re usually left with much less to be proud of. You should be happy you left at the right time and can can be proud of what you were a part of. 

sclair wrote:

What recalls are you speaking of from this time, besides the voluntary recall on carabiners for a potential missed rivet? What year was that, 2015? I worked at BD briefly form 2016 through 2019 in manufacturing, after the one recall. Can't recall any other recalls but I was also in school so pretty busy

How the heck did you miss what was probably the largest recall in the history of rock climbing?!

distinct issues across multiple product lines!

https://warranty.bdel.com/CarabinerRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/RunnerRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/CamalotRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/IndexRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/ViaFerrataRecall/Landing

Here's a nice summary of Black Diamond's recalls: blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

2016 was not a good year for them in terms of quality control.

I work for a very large outdoor gear shop.  I'll never forget... Myself and 6 other coworkers spent 2 full days inspecting each and every single piece of BD gear.....

Marc801 C wrote: Which ones? List them please.

*9* distinct issues across multiple product lines!

https://warranty.bdel.com/CarabinerRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/RunnerRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/CamalotRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/IndexRecall/Landing

https://warranty.bdel.com/ViaFerrataRecall/Landing

Here's a nice summary of Black Diamond's recalls: blackdiamondequipment.com/e…

Weren't you around for all this?

Here's some threads that resulted:

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111743854/bd-issues-voluntary-recall-inspection-of-116-million-carabiners

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111600090/black-diamond-carabiner-recall

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111776206/another-bd-recall-index-ascenders-camalot-c4s-camalot-ultralights

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111777274/black-diamond-camalot-and-index-ascender-recall

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/111778440/bd-recalls-are-adding-up

TenTon Kodiak wrote:

Can anyone shed some light on the new carabiners BD is launching for next year? I know there's a thread somewhere that posted the patent for a new keylock wiregate carabiner that will replace the OZ, but if someone has more information about the next carabiner line-up, that would be great. Someone who had the chance to attend Outdoor Retailer or ISPO. From what I read on Reddit and elsewhere, the move overseas is to have their new carabiners manufactured in Taiwan and they're apparently revamping the entire carabiner line.

I attended OR.

I got to see their 2020 lineup of biners.

No more Hoodwire technology in any of their biners for 2020

And the keylock featured in that patent was nowhere to be seen...  Maybe in a few years?

Let me help you guys out.

The problem is you, you are too cheap to spend a few more bucks on the non-slave labor shit, then the non-slaves lose their jobs because nobody buys their shit and inevitably become slaves.

Of course some of us eek it out and become successful thinking that we didn't do it on the backs of slaves. "We" are called "Republicans". "Democrats" can also be successful but they know they did it on the backs of slaves and they feel guilty :(

Tradiban wrote: Let me help you guys out.

The problem is you, you are too cheap to spend a few more bucks on the non-slave labor shit, then the non-slaves lose their jobs because nobody buys their shit and inevitably become slaves.

Of course some of us eek it out and become successful thinking that we didn't do it on the backs of slaves. "We" are called "Republicans". "Democrats" can also be successful but they know they did it on the backs of slaves and they feel guilty :(

Oh shit, I can feel the angst building...

Is it safe to say that children in Asia making gear for less than a dollar a day are close to being slaves? Maybe the kids in the factories are trying to do us all a solid so we can all buy new sprinter vans ?

If REI reduced their stock to only made in America goods would they have anything for sale anymore?