Accidental unclipping of first stick clipped draw from the bolt

Good morning, something happened to me yesterday and I would like to know how it happened. No injury or accident resulted.

Climbing at a local crag, I was going up a route where we had stick clipped the first draw as the start of the route was rather chossy and exposed.
The bolt in question was in good shape and not spinning.
The bolt hanger was vertical, on the left hand side of the bolt hole. QuickDraw’s bolt side biner’s (petzl spirit, non notched biners) spine on the left hand side (next draw up left of the first one). When my partner stick clipped it, i remember it being that weird bolt/draw orientation where you have to tilt the stick clip to get the draw into the hanger.  Draw was not back clipped and had the correct biner in the draw and the rope in the bent gate side.
Another data point, the stick clip that we used, superclip, has seen some use and it felt very (too?) easy to setup the draw into it on the ground.  

The route starts slightly left of that first draw, climbs up slightly under its level and then traverses right towards the bolt before going up to the left of this first draw. As the bolt was about around knee height, I believe I had my right foot under the draw, feet under the rope to avoid a twisting fall with only the first draw clipped (or I thought!). All of a sudden, I hear a gate snap, and see the draw resting on my feet, unclipped from the hanger. I had a good-ish stance and was able to clip it back into the hanger quickly. A fall here would have been a ground fall with 100ft tumble down a steep hill to a trail, with possible trauma.

My partners and I have been trying to understand what happened to learn from it. I have two plausible scenarios, but I’d like other people’s experience to add to it.

1: when we clipped that bolt, with this weird clipping orientation (which was the correct one for this route/clip), when pulling on the stick clip, the top of the still open biner caught the bottom of the hanger, and the loose superclip let to, leaving the carabiner’s gate propped open against the hanger as shown in this beautiful artwork:

Then when my knee/feet moved it around, it came undone. This is the most plausible explanation to me. It seemed from the ground that the draw was correctly in place, but not confirmed.

2: The rope opened the bolt side carabiner’s gate, did not get into the biner, pushed it out of the hanger and carabiner closed out of the hanger, which seems extremely unlikely to me.

What do you guys think happened?

Here is a picture of the draw, when another climber was following the route. It was setup the same way when I was leading the route up to this first stick clipped draw.

Lesson learned: when stick clipping a draw, inspect for correct placement. Tug on the ropes to ensure it’s fully set. If unable, take a look at it when getting to it before any exposed section on the climb.

My protocol with my partner includes checking my harness/knot/rope up to bolt/correct clipping of rope side carabiner/down to belayer/belay device setup. I’ll add “correct bolt side carabiner clipping” to it.

Not trying to blame my partner or myself for a mistake, we’re trying to learn from this, as this could have resulted in severe injuries (and I was the only one with medical training in my party).

Thanks!
Max

Better yet, man up go clip the bolt without the "cheater" lol using one you get what you asked for, cheaters usually lose.

PS glad you did not get hurt.

lesson learned don't use one.

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Better yet, man up go clip the bolt without the "cheater" lol using one you get what you asked for, cheaters usually lose.

PS glad you did not get hurt.

lesson learned don't use one.

Wow. Surprised this dick swinging bullshit appeared as the very first reply.

Only the ill-informed don't believe that there are a ton of routes that are bolted with the intention of using a stick clip on the first bolt.

LOL the route is already pre-protected with a bunch of bolts so now you must make it even safer for you mind, if you use a stick it's not a send.

That is a scary story, Maxime, glad you are OK.
Whatever happened (probably no. 1), it’s a very rare occurrence. As you say, “setting”, the rope would probably have revealed the issue as the draw would probably have popped off or set. 
A similar situation that has happened to me on a rare occasion is when you go to clip something back onto your gear loop or gear sling and then you look down to realize the biner has caught but it’s not really on and thus the gate isn’t closed. Only happens 1/5000 times but when it does you sure notice it. 

Jeffrey Constine wrote: LOL the route is already pre-protected with a bunch of bolts so now you must make it even safer for you mind, if you use a stick it's not a send.

Haha, there are a whole lot of “unsent” routes awaiting your FA buddy.

Almost certainly scenario 1.

As Julian describes, it is possible for the draw to twist in such a way that the bolt hanger itself opens the gate of the bolt end biner.

But 1 is much more likely here.

As for Medusa’s antediluvian opinions?
Who cares?

Stick it if you’ve got one, clip ‘em if they’re there. 

Mark E Dixon wrote: Almost certainly scenario 1.

As for Medusa’s antediluvian opinions?
Who cares?

Stick it if you’ve got one, clip ‘em if they’re there. 

at least he didn't post a pic of himself....yet....

i know a few who use lockers (top and bottom) on the 1rst bolt to avoid this.

Marc801 C wrote:

Wow. Surprised this dick swinging bullshit appeared as the very first reply.

Only the ill-informed don't believe that there are a ton of routes that are bolted with the intention of using a stick clip on the first bolt.

Don't be surprised. His comments usually proclaim how good he is and how inferior everyone else is.  

Ryan M Moore wrote:

Haha, there are a whole lot of “unsent” routes awaiting your FA buddy.

putting up new routes weekly. of course. Some with bolts some with out.

Julian H wrote: Clip the draw on the bolt with the gate away from directing of climbing.

I'm pretty sure this is the answer, and I've actually seen it happen (twice).

You said that the route moves up and right of the bolt as you climb, but you never mention which direction you put the quickdraw on the bolt, which makes me think that probably wasn't a consideration of yours. If the gate was facing to the right (so the gate is facing towards the climber as they moved up and right of the bolt) then it can get in a position that causes it to unclip from the bolt. Check out the pictures on this ANAM report: publications.americanalpine…

In that report you can see that the rope-side biner's spine is facing the direction of travel, which is generally accepted as good practice to prevent the rope from running across the gate and unclipping itself in a fall (extremely unlikely in my opinion, but possible). However, the draws in that report are assembled with the rope and bolt side biners facing opposite directions. So even though the rope side biner is correctly facing away from the direction of travel, the bolt side biner is not facing away from the direction of travel, which can lead to the self-unclipping quickdraw scenario shown in the photos (again, I've seen this happen in real life twice so it's not so unlikely in my experience).

Cue the "it doesn't matter if your quickdraw biners are opposed" and "gates facing away from the direction of travel is a myth" comments... I agree, 99.9% of the time it doesn't matter. But there's a reason these things are called "best practices," because if there's a one in a thousand chance that something can happen, and you climb a lot, it can definitely happen, even to extremely experienced and accomplished climbers (e.g. Wayne Krill's freak rope unclipping accident in Eldo).

I've definitely fallen at least 5,000 times in my 10 years of climbing so far, so personally I choose to do what I can to stack the deck in my favor.

this ^^^ 10/10

Abram Herman wrote
You said that the route moves up and right of the bolt as you climb, but you never mention which direction you put the quickdraw on the bolt, which makes me think that probably wasn't a consideration of yours.

Read again (also see photo for the quickdraw orientation)

Maxime wrote  The route starts slightly left of that first draw, climbs up slightly under its level and then traverses right towards the bolt before going up to the left of this first draw.

I'm not so sure the clipping orientation was the issue, but funny things happen with carabiners sometimes.  I once had a fall where my gear loop caught on the quickdraw clipped to the bolt below me.  Jerked me around a bit, tore the gear loop open (luckily I didn't have have much gear on there).  Anyways, be vigilant, but there's not always a lesson to be learned.

Abram Herman wrote
I've definitely fallen at least 5,000 times in my 10 years of climbing so far, so personally I choose to do what I can to stack the deck in my favor.

^ You must burn through a lot of ropes!

Maxime Guillaume wrote: Good morning, something happened to me yesterday and I would like to know how it happened. No injury or accident resulted.

Climbing at a local crag, I was going up a route where we had stick clipped the first draw as the start of the route was rather chossy and exposed.
The bolt in question was in good shape and not spinning.
The bolt hanger was vertical, on the left hand side of the bolt hole. QuickDraw’s bolt side biner’s (petzl spirit, non notched biners) bone on the left hand side (next draw up left of the first one). When my partner stick clipped it, i remember it being that weird bolt/draw orientation where you have to tilt the stick clip to get the draw into the hanger.  Draw was not back clipped and had the correct biner in the draw and the rope in the bent gate side.
Another data point, the stick clip that we used, superclip, has seen some use and it felt very (too?) easy to setup the draw into it on the ground.  

The route starts slightly left of that first draw, climbs up slightly under its level and then traverses right towards the bolt before going up to the left of this first draw. As the bolt was about around knee height, I believe I had my right foot under the draw, feet under the rope to avoid a twisting fall with only the first draw clipped (or I thought!). All of a sudden, I hear a gate snap, and see the draw resting on my feet, unclipped from the hanger. I had a good-ish stance and was able to clip it back into the hanger quickly. A fall here would have been a ground fall with 100ft tumble down a steep hill to a trail, with possible trauma.

My partners and I have been trying to understand what happened to learn from it. I have two plausible scenarios, but I’d like other people’s experience to add to it.

1: when we clipped that bolt, with this weird clipping orientation (which was the correct one for this route/clip), when pulling on the stick clip, the top of the still open biner caught the bottom of the hanger, and the loose superclip let to, leaving the carabiner’s gate propped open against the hanger as shown in this beautiful artwork:

Then when my knee/feet moved it around, it came undone. This is the most plausible explanation to me. It seemed from the ground that the draw was correctly in place, but not confirmed.

2: The rope opened the bolt side carabiner’s gate, did not get into the biner, pushed it out of the hanger and carabiner closed out of the hanger, which seems extremely unlikely to me.

What do you guys think happened?

Here is a picture of the draw, when another climber was following the route. It was setup the same way when I was leading the route up to this first stick clipped draw.

Lesson learned: when stick clipping a draw, inspect for correct placement. Tug on the ropes to ensure it’s fully set. If unable, take a look at it when getting to it before any exposed section on the climb.

My protocol with my partner includes checking my harness/knot/rope up to bolt/correct clipping of rope side carabiner/down to belayer/belay device setup. I’ll add “correct bolt side carabiner clipping” to it.

Not trying to blame my partner or myself for a mistake, we’re trying to learn from this, as this could have resulted in severe injuries (and I was the only one with medical training in my party).

Thanks!
Max

Biner on the hanger need to be loose on the QD. I can see in the pic that you don't have a rubber "keeper" but was the webbing a bit tight and pulled the hanger biner upwards?

Always double check a stick clipped draw when you reach it. It sounds like one side or the other of the draw wasn't correct or was partially stuck. Probably still fine to top rope on but you want to fix it before moving past.

Or it was back clipped, which is even more likely. Easy to say it wasn't but there's no way to be certain of that now. Which again probably won't be a problem top roping just check the draw when you reach it.

Simple mistake and simple fix; physically check stick clipped draws when you reach them.

JaredG wrote:
Read again

You're right, I guess he did say it now that I re-read, just in an odd way: "QuickDraw’s bolt side biner’s [...] bone on the left hand side". I guess by bone on the left hand side he meant the biner's spine was on the left hand side, since the bone isn't really on a side...

^ You must burn through a lot of ropes!

Eh, not really, ropes are pretty resilient. I only climb with belayers who know how to give a proper soft catch, which helps the rope out in that regard. I don't think that's a huge number of falls, though. Say conservatively 5 falls a session (which I would say is quite low for some sessions), 3 sessions a week, 52 weeks a year, for 10 years; that gives 7,800 falls.

Thank you all* for your input. I believe I had the draw oriented correctly (both spines facing the direction of travel, not backclipped), but not closed. I appreciate you guys explaining what can happen in different scenarios.

* As for Mr Jeffrey Constine, I don't give a flying fuck that you're putting new routes up weekly and sending hard PG and R shit without a stick clip, good for you. Being an arrogant route setter  / climber / armchair MP troll does not grant you the right to be a dick to people who are trying to learn from their mistakes and try to have fun rock climbing instead of wanting to risk injuries sending something without stick clipping just so you can collect your street cred.

Abram Herman wrote:

You're right, I guess he did say it now that I re-read, just in an odd way: "QuickDraw’s bolt side biner’s [...] bone on the left hand side". I guess by bone on the left hand side he meant the biner's spine was on the left hand side, since the bone isn't really on a side...

You are correct, I meant spine. I edited the post.

Jeffrey K wrote: Always double check a stick clipped draw when you reach it. It sounds like one side or the other of the draw wasn't correct or was partially stuck. Probably still fine to top rope on but you want to fix it before moving past.

Or it was back clipped, which is even more likely. Easy to say it wasn't but there's no way to be certain of that now. Which again probably won't be a problem top roping just check the draw when you reach it.

Simple mistake and simple fix; physically check stick clipped draws when you reach them.

That's what I'm going to do going forward.
As far as backclipping, I always check for it when stick clipping, it was not the case this time.

Max G wrote: Thank you all* for your input. I believe I had the draw oriented correctly (both spines facing the direction of travel, not backclipped), but not closed. I appreciate you guys explaining what can happen in different scenarios.

Check that that hanger biner is nice and loose.

I forgot to ask, was it a "notch" nose biner? Notch can get caught on hanger and cause issues.

* As for Mr Jeffrey Constine, I don't give a flying fuck that you're putting new routes up weekly and sending hard PG and R shit without a stick clip, good for you. Being an arrogant route setter  / climber / armchair MP troll does not grant you the right to be a dick to people who are trying to learn from their mistakes and try to have fun rock climbing instead of wanting to risk injuries sending something without stick clipping just so you can collect your street cred.

Yessssssssssss!

Jeffrey Constine wrote: Better yet, man up go clip the bolt without the "cheater" lol using one you get what you asked for, cheaters usually lose.

PS glad you did not get hurt.

lesson learned don't use one.

When you gain some more experience at different areas you’ll learn some routes are meant to have the first bolt stick clipped. 

When there’s a bad landing or exposed start the FA could add another bolt down low, but many developers woul rather just have the first bolt higher and use a stick clip. 

Tradiban wrote:

I forgot to ask, was it a "notch" nose biner? Notch can get caught on hanger and cause issues.

No notch