False Rescue in The Cirque 6/29

coldfinger wrote: Pretty typical of MP.  We could be discussing when/if and how it is appropriate to signal other climbers for help, ditto with SAR, what is a an emergency vs. a bivy, or ...

Maybe we could take baby steps first ...

You’ve backpacked in somewhere remote. Next day, two of your friends will do alpine climb A while you and your partner will do alpine climb B. 

Team A asks you, if you are not back at a normally expected time, and the sun has gone down, when do you want us to hike/climb up after you?

For simplicity, suggest assuming no SOS signal or the like, no foul weather.

Episode 37 of The Sharp End podcast is "When and How to Call for Help." Seems relevant to this discussion.

Allen Sanderson wrote:

Have you ever actually done this (2 rappers off one device)? It might sound good in theory but in practice trying to coordinate such a rappel to bail from a route where the terrain below and next station is unknown  seems to me is asking for a cluster fuck.

I've done this tandem rap many times for various reasons. (Ever watch a beginner spend 10 minutes rapping 180 ft with sleet pouring and lightning flying? Nor have I ;)   With competence, it's a no-cluster, fundamental self-rescue technique all should be able to employ. Learn how to properly rig and give it a whirl.

Well ok, let's review the facts of this.

They were unhurt.  
The weather that night was stable enough.
While it was dark, they could see off in the direction weather would be coming from (in reality and in the Cirque in particular this is a HUGE consideration).
They had enough gear to evacuate themselves.

In my mind the two big "mental" facts:
They were mentally fatigued (imho THIS is what drove their decision to signal the other party and call EMS).
They then decided to rappel into what what was to them unknown territory and found "tat" anchors.  This choice could have ended very poorly.

FrankPS - would be interested to know what the podcasts take was, but here are my thoughts for discussion fodder...

When to call:   Broken femur or unconscious partner (or closely similar).  Meaning one or more team members Likely will not survive the night.  
One broken arm or shoulder or similar (non life threatening injury or mere discomfort (gonna spend a cold night out) is not a “call for rescue” emergency.   Interested in reasonable disagreements with this.  

Who to call:  I guess I favor at least first attempting to keep it “in house” as much as possible.  Especially if it’s not a femur, or TBI/unconsciousness.  Often an extra hand, fresh perspective, or piece of gear is all that’s needed
(Case here in point) rather than going straight to 911.   Agreed that any “help” can be variable at best and it is up to any would be rescuers or helpers to honestly assess their capabilities, etc,

Mulch did the proper thing (trying ALL avenues simultaneously) if his partner had been laid out on the ledge with a severe injury, drifting in and out of consciousness.  

My opinion is that you should go out into the bush with the attitude that you are the most competent people around and that there are only a few extreme circumstances which will ever force you to prove yourself wrong.

Dropping gear or missing a headlamp, painful but non life threatening injuries,  severe weather  etc etc are not reasons to call for help.....mostly for the simple fact that by the time any help arrives, the danger is either past, or you could’ve been down already, yourself. 

Mark Pilate wrote: When to call:  
One broken arm or shoulder or similar (non life threatening injury or mere discomfort (gonna spend a cold night out) is not a “call for rescue” emergency.   Interested in reasonable disagreements with this.  

Depends on team's wilderness trauma assessment skills. Depending on the break it could be a painful, uncomfortable night....or they could lose the use of the limb....or bleed out internally.

highaltitudeflatulentexpulsion wrote: A few years ago a team died while bailing in the Winds. Before asking the climbers to go outside of their comfort zone or technical ability, repeat that sentence. A few years ago a team died while bailing in the Winds.

Details?

Also I was thinking about potentially heading into the Winds in August. Is that a good time of year to go? Is earlier or later August usually better? (seems slightly less off-topic than munters - not that I care about threads going off topic)

Glad all parties were okay.

A community college climbing instructor and a young father we're rapping off Pingora a pitch or two after the long leftward traverse that basically is the start of the route. The anchor, unsure if it was in situ, failed and both went down.

As for August, it's probably best. Even into September depending on the year. Sure the days are a little shorter and the nights colder but the snow has melted and the monsoons have passed. The idea window is mid August through the first week of September.

Wow...this is the evolution of our sport....not a rescue 

Nothing  wrong with  following  tat anchors as long as you  pay  attention and  beef the  anchors  up as needed. 

Mark Pilate wrote
When to call:   Broken femur or unconscious partner (or closely similar).  Meaning one or more team members Likely will not survive the night.  
One broken arm or shoulder or similar (non life threatening injury or mere discomfort (gonna spend a cold night out) is not a “call for rescue” emergency.   Interested in reasonable disagreements with this.  

there is a big problem with this. if you are taking this approach, then you better be very well versed in patient assessment and be 100% sure their broken arm is not a distracting injury..meaning there is not another underlying problem that is more serious.  you are taking a very big gamble...

Also, don't call friends for help. call 911 and let professionals deal with it. 

There was a rescue last October of 2 stuck climbers on a popular route in CCC in the middle of the night. why? because they called their friends to try and rescue them first...and they spent 3 hours fiddling around on the cliff before they realized they were all in over their heads. so, instead of being picked off on a nice, sunny afternoon, they waited 3 hours to call 911 and spent a cold, wet evening on the rock before SAR got to them

Mulch wrote: Hey Adam I understand that what my partner and I did was fueled by a lot of bad decision making and we should've been more prepared for that type of situation. As you mentioned above it rained all night and a good bit that next morning. That evening, we were deathly afraid of the incoming thunderstorms that were forecasted for the next morning so we tried calling for help that evening. Stupid. We would never have called if we knew that the forecast was in our favor. There was about 1hr 30 min of light left we thought that they'd be able to come help us that night. Stupid. We saw you guys down in the basin and were signaling to you because we weren't sure if the call would fail while we were on the line with help. At this point I knew the munter hitch could be used for belaying but I was way too nervous to rely on something I've barely practiced using before. I also was refraining from rapping from the spot we were at because the belay device that I know can be made out of locking carabiners was something I also never really practiced. We ended up getting ahold of 911 again in the morning as it was storming on us. After the operator gave us the forecast for the next hour or so, we told her that we were gonna try to get off the climb ourselves that day. The weather broke for the next 2 hrs so we used it to rap off the south face. Both me and my partner were very skeptical if the rappell would actually go or if we'd have to put in our own anchors. Luckily the rappells were all there... Overall a lack of skills and good decision making on our part caused a lot of unneccessary pain and stress to be brought onto a multitude of people. I'm truly sorry for ultimately making that decision.

But good thing you had your packs with you?

Point being, Mulch, that all that stuff you had with you is useless if you don't know all it can do. This is why the OGs say better no packs and competence rather than bringing the kitchen sink but not knowing how to use it.

curt86iroc wrote:

There was a rescue last October of 2 stuck climbers on a popular route in CCC in the middle of the night. why? because they called their friends to try and rescue them first...and they spent 3 hours fiddling around on the cliff before they realized they were all in over their heads. so, instead of being picked off on a nice, sunny afternoon, they waited 3 hours to call 911 and spent a cold, wet evening on the rock before SAR got to them

Let me guess...Playin Hooky?

Buck Rio wrote:

Let me guess...Playin Hooky?

yep...

BillS wrote: Back to my original simple point - between a Munter and a carabiner brake - at least use a brain cell for a moment and consider the trade-offs.  I use a brake whenever I can, it's easier to handle and easier on the rope.

I also prefer a Biner brake, but a lot of newer biners aren't really very good at that. My Trad rack is now entirely smaller wire gates. I haven't tried, but I am guessing it would be impossible to construct a biner brake out of Petzl Ange, Nano 22, DMM Chimera, Edelrid 19, BD Oz etc...at least with a doubled rope.

At least with a Munter all you really need is an HMS style carabiner.

Enough with the Munter!!!!  I think three pages covered it.

As for lowering one person and the second using the device I just don't see how that is a good idea in the alpine......

Mainly with communication if the first (lowered) climber needs to stop at a certain point or to build an anchor.  Especially if there is complex terrain, wind and/or bad weather it might be impossible for that both climbers to communicate.

One could have real trouble if the middle mark is missed or nonexistent.  With the rope moving it might be more likely to knock loose rock down on the first person down.

Simulrapping with one device and a spider or with one device and the rope running freely through a ring or carabiner  to the second (who is tied in) could work, but I'm pretty sure I would be hesitant to load a janky piece of tat or non bolted gear anchor with both climbers.  Only way to go if rapping with an injured and helpless partner though.  This WOULD be my preferred technique though if there were bolted rap anchors involved.

Curt- my point is mostly meant as a goal and attitude to work towards.  Many aren’t there yet, but there’s really no reason for even a gym climber with a year of experience to not to be skilled in basic assessment and first aid even if you don’t go full blown WFR/WEMT, or to have some skills in the bag (or at least in their head) for basic self rescue.  

those “professionals” you mention are mostly volunteer climbers just like everyone else.  Even if you don’t join a team or polish up to that std, there’s really no reason to abdicate responsibility to someone else for your own safety.  

As for your example, yes it is hard to overcome compounded incompetence.  Some people shouldn’t leave the house without a “SPOT” taped to their forehead. 

Mark Pilate wrote: those “professionals” you mention are mostly volunteer climbers just like everyone else. 

The Cirque is in Fremont County (meaning Lander) which means volunteers on the vertical rescue, but at least that team is very likely to be strong and very experienced.  The west side is Sublette County who are far less experienced volunteers.  The old joke here is if you fall off try to hit on the East side or failing that crawl over.

The contract helicopter comes out of Teton County meaning that there are more likely to be actual professionals involved, whether its TCSAR or Jenny Lake NPS Rangers.

But the bottom line is that don't expect as fast or as professional a rescue as you might get elsewhere like say the nearby Tetons.  Volunteers need more time to assemble and get on location.

Mark Pilate wrote:those “professionals” you mention are mostly volunteer climbers just like everyone else.  

don't confuse regular climbers with SAR volunteers. SAR volunteers that are accredited through the MRA are unpaid professionals in every sense, and spend countless hours practicing vertical rescues as part of their accreditation standards.

Edit: We could actually count since part of the MRA standard is to track training hours, but you get my point...

Curt -  Not confusing......  Been one and still am.