Thoughts on these setups for anchors?

No, redundancy means what it means. Do I put a cat into every anchor I build--of course. TR, sport and to some extend trad, but the point is that we all place our lives in something. We have faith in something. My biggest fear, as I said in my post, is the rope will cut--because there is no backup to the rope. So, I trust the placements as much as anyone can. Every piece of gear I've ever bought--if you read the lit--starts with "Climbing is inherently dangerous."

0/10 worst trolling account on mp. 

MisterE Wolfe wrote:

I really like these hooks - we put a bunch of these from the ASCA in the Owens River Gorge to replace old anchors, and they are holding up really well. 

That being said, the stainless Slip Hooks  are only $.60 more than the ClimbTech hooks, and IMO stainless steel generally seems like the better option, depending on the gate quality...

Thoughts, Clint?

Erik,

I agree with Greg Barnes' reply.
At the Owens River Gorge (where I believe the Mussy Hooks first became popular),
there is an anchor maintenance issue because frequent lowering with dusty ropes wears grooves in the hooks.
So a bigger hook body should make the hooks last longer.
Also, my understanding is that common grades of stainless steel (like the Slip Hooks) are softer than carbon steel, which should also make the ClimbTech hooks last longer.
(They agree in their product description).

The Rams Horns look like an excellent choice as well.
(Maybe not for Owens River Gorge, because they would have to be replaced sooner, but for anchors in other areas with less frequent lowering.)
The research and design innovations shared on Jim Titt's page are very impressive - the best resource that I know of.
http://bolt-products.com/

- Clint

Thanks for the responses, Clint & Greg.

Actually in my main website you can find them made from 12mm bar as well as the normal 10mm!
BUT!!!! I doubt I´ve sold 30 over the past fifteen years and don´t even have the tooling for them any more, the last request for some was probably 3 years ago.
I only produced them at that time because it was possible that the new standard would include them in the 25kN requirement (they get like 30kN) but that never happened and won´t in the future, for normal customers the 10mm version are better value for money. They are more challenging to install (bigger hammer required).
If you only install the rope on one side (or it comes out from one side) the rope jams between the two legs or squeezes down between them and you only lower on one side. There is another design from AustriAlpin which use 8mm rod and a welded top bar which have a good ultimate test strength but have to be welded in place (and get cracks). If the rope comes out of one side on these it comes out completely.

Owens River Gorge has fine volcanic grit that is attracted to ropes by static electricity (super dry climate). So the ropes become giant rat tail files, or giant pieces of round sandpaper. Nothing will hold up to that sort of abrasion, so thicker is better, and the new Climbtech anchor hooks are super thick. Tony Puppo used to do most of the anchor maintenance down there, and he said they tried all sorts of metals and options back in the '90s, and that nothing will hold up. He also said that metal type made no noticeable difference.

At least all of the hook options are far, far better than the old open cold shuts! When those were super worn down, there's nothing to clip to at all!  I've seen them worn more than 90% of the way through until they bent open...yikes!

Jim's main site is: bolt-products.com

Anchor installers:
Please oppose the direction of fixed biners (mussies).  
A year ago I lead a long pitch, clipped one anchor bolt with a draw and the other with a locking draw (screwgate on bolt and rope end) with the gates opposed and lowered to the ground.
Follower got to anchor, non-locking draw was unclipped!!!!!!!!!  He top-roped at least part of the climb on one anchor bolt and draw.
I find it weird that most gyms and routes with fixed anchor biners don’t oppose the gates.  
I have lowered off thousand of times in 26 years of climbing and this failure instance has only happened once (though biners unclipping has happened other times, but midpitch instead of at the anchor) so while this is very unlikely it is still possible and if it happens while following (don’t have successive bolts clipped as on lead) then it has the potential to be deadly. 
While it is true that clipping anchor biners that are oriented the same way is easier, I’m interested in the top anchor being as close to fail-proof as possible, not convenient.  
Ps.  Thanks to everyone who has installed, replaced, and maintained any fixed hardware.......we all really appreciate the work, thought, and money you selflessly give to our community.

climberz wrote: Anchor installers:
Please oppose the direction of fixed biners (mussies).  
A year ago I lead a long pitch, clipped one anchor bolt with a draw and the other with a locking draw (screwgate on bolt and rope end) with the gates opposed and lowered to the ground.
Follower got to anchor, non-locking draw was unclipped!!!!!!!!!  He top-roped at least part of the climb on one anchor bolt and draw.
I find it weird that most gyms and routes with fixed anchor biners don’t oppose the gates.  
I have lowered off thousand of times in 26 years of climbing and this failure instance has only happened once (though biners unclipping has happened other times, but midpitch instead of at the anchor) so while this is very unlikely it is still possible and if it happens while following (don’t have successive bolts clipped as on lead) then it has the potential to be deadly. 
While it is true that clipping anchor biners that are oriented the same way is easier, I’m interested in the top anchor being as close to fail-proof as possible, not convenient.  
Ps.  Thanks to everyone who has installed, replaced, and maintained any fixed hardware.......we all really appreciate the work, thought, and money you selflessly give to our community.

I agree completely. Dont compromise safety for one dbag that is inconvenienced and crying about it. Opposed  anchors biners/mussy hooks are a must for redundancy. Just be sure the one you clip first on lead is the one facing out!

Edit: If missed the fact that you were top roping through fixed gear, yup, dont do that, ever. It's not yours! But none the less, always install lower offs opposite. If it can happen on top rope, there's a chance it could happen while cleaning. There's a lot of weirdness that happen while cleaning a route, and some routes are more weird than others.

climberz wrote: Anchor installers:
Please oppose the direction of fixed biners (mussies).  
A year ago I lead a long pitch, clipped one anchor bolt with a draw and the other with a locking draw (screwgate on bolt and rope end) with the gates opposed and lowered to the ground.
Follower got to anchor, non-locking draw was unclipped!!!!!!!!!  He top-roped at least part of the climb on one anchor bolt and draw.
I find it weird that most gyms and routes with fixed anchor biners don’t oppose the gates.  
I have lowered off thousand of times in 26 years of climbing and this failure instance has only happened once (though biners unclipping has happened other times, but midpitch instead of at the anchor) so while this is very unlikely it is still possible and if it happens while following (don’t have successive bolts clipped as on lead) then it has the potential to be deadly. 
While it is true that clipping anchor biners that are oriented the same way is easier, I’m interested in the top anchor being as close to fail-proof as possible, not convenient.  
Ps.  Thanks to everyone who has installed, replaced, and maintained any fixed hardware.......we all really appreciate the work, thought, and money you selflessly give to our community.

Don't top rope through the mussys and the problem is solved.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Don't top rope through the mussys and the problem is solved.

This.

I have a recollection that the mussys don't nest well if they are opposed.  I don't recall the specifics, and don't have any handy to see what the issue was.  The first set I installed was on an anchor that was free-hanging (mussys not in contact with the wall), so I thought opposed would be ok.  After setting them up that way and doing the pitch once (lowering off after a lead), I switched them to facing the same way.  

When we toprope on an anchor with mussys, I typically hang my TR quickdraws off of the lowest screwlink, and to the outside of the hooks.  When the last person goes up to clean the anchor, they can just lift a small amount of slack to drop the rope into the mussys and have the belayer take.  With the rope under tension through the mussys, there is not a chance of them coming unclipped.  The toprope draws are now unweighted, and not trapped inside the anchor, so they are easy to remove.

Mark E Dixon wrote:

Don't top rope through the mussys and the problem is solved.

I'm 99% sure he described his own gear, and was just emphasizing how ropes can come out. I'm a huge advocate of opposite lower offs. Why wouldn't you? There's no good argument.

Ma Ja wrote:

I'm 99% sure he described his own gear, and was just emphasizing how ropes can come out. I'm a huge advocate of opposite lower offs. Why wouldn't you? There's no good argument.

We're not talking about biners here. Musseys suck when they're opposed - it's not a smooth lower, esp. when they're not free hanging.

Marc801 C wrote:

We're not talking about biners here. Musseys suck when they're opposed - it's not a smooth lower, esp. when they're not free hanging.

I disagree. My newest route has opposed mussy hooks from CT and it's perfectly fine. They are even pinned against a perfectly vertical flat rock.

Ma Ja wrote:

I disagree. My newest route has opposed mussy hooks from CT and it's perfectly fine. They are even pinned against a perfectly vertical flat rock.

Yet on the last page Rich Farnham wrote:

I have a recollection that the mussys don't nest well if they are opposed.  I don't recall the specifics, and don't have any handy to see what the issue was.  The first set I installed was on an anchor that was free-hanging (mussys not in contact with the wall), so I thought opposed would be ok.  After setting them up that way and doing the pitch once (lowering off after a lead), I switched them to facing the same way.  

Rich Farnham wrote:
When we toprope on an anchor with mussys, I typically hang my TR quickdraws off of the lowest screwlink, and to the outside of the hooks.  When the last person goes up to clean the anchor, they can just lift a small amount of slack to drop the rope into the mussys and have the belayer take.  With the rope under tension through the mussys, there is not a chance of them coming unclipped.  The toprope draws are now unweighted, and not trapped inside the anchor, so they are easy to remove.

I prefer to clip both lower off bingers, then either put a single locker or short draw directly on the highest bolt hanger. That puts the wear on your gear and the climber is already clipped in when they arrive at the top. 

I started doing this after I saw someone get in the mindset of cleaning using the method you describe. They pulled the last draw and then realized they were now on nothing. I still don't understand how one does that, but it happened. 

I was and do tr off my own anchors.
The point is that biners can and do come unclipped. This would be catastrophic if both anchor draws come unclipped which when unopposed is about as easy as one coming unclipped.
I wonder if this has happened in a gym since they regularly use unopposed biners at the anchor.
Obviously this would not be such a big deal if the failure happens after leading , only upon cleaning on follow, or much worse and likely leading to death, on tr.
If in the instance I explained my first post ( c’est la vie first two pitches in one to free hanging chain anchor on top of corner pitch 140’) i had not opposed biners and had locker in mix, perhaps the follower would have gotten to last piece and realized that was his tr anchor...yikes.

Marc801 C wrote:

Yet on the last page Rich Farnham wrote:

I read that too. Seems his opinion is different than mine. I have had a perfect experience with mine. I've used them for the last 4 weekends, and they're great. Climb Tech Mussy for plated steel routes, Team Tough Lower Offs or Pig Tails for SS routes is the way to go. Opposite orientation where appropriate. The Lower Offs and Mussys shouldn't be opposite when the gate comes in contact with the rock, for instance. And obviously the pigtails, never.

Ma Ja wrote:

I'm 99% sure he described his own gear, and was just emphasizing how ropes can come out. I'm a huge advocate of opposite lower offs. Why wouldn't you? There's no good argument.

If you hang the mussies directly on the bolts with a quick link the gate against the rock is easily opened defeating your ideal redundancy. If you face them both outwards and have some distance between them two such oriented have never come unclipped (albeit yet).

If you hang them off some chains then those that want to oppose can and those fine with them not can be made happy too. Just twist them around as desired.

Ps you seemed to have addressed most of this while I was typing.

I like open shuts just for the thrill.

Ma Ja wrote:

I disagree. My newest route has opposed mussy hooks from CT and it's perfectly fine. They are even pinned against a perfectly vertical flat rock.

There is not a “right” answer.  Every anchor requires independent thinking and basic trials.  Sometimes opposed mussys are perfect, sometimes they twist funny, pinch the rope, or do not interface well with the rock.  Occasionally no configuration of mussys is right and a different anchor choice is required.