Your ATC is unsafe

Folks have seized on some incorrect claims in Kris's post.  You can pump slack with a Grigri as fast as with any other device, and the standard single blocked strand rappel strategy doesn't limit descent options or force one to carry another device.  (However, rappelling with a Grigri is not so great and many experienced climbers do carry another device for that purpose.)  But no one seems to have acknowledged his observation about the inability of the belayer to release some slack after a fall to keep the leader from hitting somthing like the lip of a ceiling.  

At the end of the day, you want a belayer who is aware of the ins and outs of the device they use, is skilled with using it,  and who is able to focus on the job at hand.  The wrong device in some people's hands is a dangerous device, and any device in certain people's hands is a dangerous device.  But this has little or nothing to do with the ATC/Grigri debate.

Sloppy Second wrote: The fact that someone doesn't know many people who can properly use a device doesn't say anything about the device.

You could go to any of the bigger climbing gyms on a weekday night and find at least a few people competently using a grigri for lead belaying.

I know Kris is an accomplished climber but that grigri rant had some noobish claims.

But he used to climb hard so he must know better...

m Mobes wrote:

But he used to climb hard so he must know better...

M mobes, my post was a factual response  to your query as to whether kris was a newer climber. No, he is not. No opinion was expressed. 

rgold wrote: Folks have seized on some incorrect claims in Kris's post.  You can pump slack with a Grigri as fast as with any other device, and the standard single blocked strand rappel strategy doesn't limit descent options or force one to carry another device.  (However, rappelling with a Grigri is not so great and many experienced climbers do carry another device for that purpose.)  But no one seems to have acknowledged his observation about the inability of the belayer to release some slack after a fall to keep the leader from hitting somthing like the lip of a ceiling.  

It seems you are trying to salvage the grigri rant but it's a lost cause. It was basically wrong on all points. You can certainly use a grigri for rappel, these days aid climbers are constantly ascending and descending with them. The ability to release slack at the moment of a fall in order to control the trajectory is guesswork at best, and it could be done with a grigri by finessing the lever if that's really a skill someone needs.

The random weirdos are right this time.

Sloppy Second wrote:

It seems you are trying to salvage the grigri rant...

I'm not trying to "salvage" anything.

Sloppy Second wrote:

It seems you are trying to salvage the grigri rant ....

... a gratuitous assumption on your part. Nay. Self-serving.

Why argue?
Every climber is going to use the belay device
they are comfortable with.
I'll stick with an ATC, or a hip belay.

I'm not so sure Dwain. I don't think there is a truly great belay device on the market, and I'm not at all convinced that the market even manages to choose the best devices.  I use primarily a Grigri and an Alpine Up, but have a DMM Pivot I use in some cases too.  I'm comfortable with all of these (as well as a laundry list of now-defunct devices and methods going back to the Sticht plate and the hip belay).

No response to my important point about Gri-Gri's inability to rappel on both sides of a rap line? People have died simul-rapping because of this shortcoming.

No response to my questions about how to escape a belay when your injured leader is more than halfway out the rope?

No response to my point that sometimes a belayer needs to let some slack out during a fall to soften the leader's swing back into the wall, and Gri-Gri is not the best device for this?

But you know lots of gym climbers who feed out rope just fine (where the bolts are 2M apart.) Or for sport climbing, as Petzl recommends the device, lots of climbers can feed out the rope. But what about on a real climb, where you can't see your leader? It is much quicker and easier to respond to that tug in the rope for slack with a normal device.

This place is pretty harsh when you all come down hard on a climber who has 45 years in the sport and tries to throw in a few points you might not have considered.

Cheers all

True, RGold.
I guess I've been lucky.  In my entire time climbing
I have never had a partner that I have belayed
that has gotten injured save for a few bumps and scrapes while hip belaying or using an ATC.

I have gotten injured a few times while being belayed,. but it was not the belay devices fault.
It was the belayer.

Case in point; I was 2 feet above my last piece, and fell 50 feet.
No. My last piece did not pull out.

I think more serious accidents with any kind of belay device are caused by inattentive belayers
rather than the devices.
 

If it is any consolation, this place can be pretty harsh generally, and it seems to me more so of late, so its nothing personal Kris.  Most of the harshness comes from a very small number of people, who nonetheless have an outsize impact on the general tone. Rec.climbing and SuperTopo consumed themselves with corrosive bile, so this is also nothing particularly new.

RGold, the truly GREAT belay device is an ATTENTIVE belayer!  :-)

Kristian Solem wrote: No response to my important point about Gri-Gri's inability to rappel on both sides of a rap line? People have died simul-rapping because of this shortcoming.

No response to my questions about how to escape a belay when your injured leader is more than halfway out the rope?

No response to my point that sometimes a belayer needs to let some slack out during a fall to soften the leader's swing back into the wall, and Gri-Gri is not the best device for this?

But you know lots of gym climbers who feed out rope just fine (where the bolts are 2M apart.) Or for sport climbing, as Petzl recommends the device, lots of climbers can feed out the rope. But what about on a real climb, where you can't see your leader? It is much quicker and easier to respond to that tug in the rope for slack with a normal device.

This place is pretty harsh when you all come down hard on a climber who has 45 years in the sport and tries to throw in a few points you might not have considered.

Cheers all

Its all been considered a thousand times over. People have died. 45 years... yet its still the one that "gym" climbers and the best climbers in the world use on the hardest and longest routes in the world. go figure.

m Mobes wrote:

Its all been considered a thousand times over. People have died. 45 years... yet its still the one that "gym" climbers and the best climbers in the world use on the hardest and longest routes in the world. go figure.

The GriGri?  It hasn’t been around nearly that long.

Am curious about device choice in my gym. Suspect the GriGri’s usage is in the minority there.

Reminds of some device demos our gym put on just before it went to a 100% assisted braking policy for leads.

Walking in on demo day, there was a belay device rep pretty close to the front door. A bunch gathered around. Eventually someone asked if he was going to demo something besides the GriGri. The answer was “No, other devices are being demo’d in the back room.”

Everyone in the bunch left for the non-GriGri demos. And that was where the gym owner was, helping to demo other devices.

m Mobes wrote:

Its all been considered a thousand times over. People have died. 45 years... yet its still the one that "gym" climbers and the best climbers in the world use on the hardest and longest routes in the world. go figure.

This is misleading and possibly not true. Unless you have personally surveyed all of the "best" climbers(and their belayer's), how the hell would you know? 

In my gym, there are some 12 year old 90 pound girls that are far better with a gri-gri than I am, because that is all they have ever used and they climb three times a week in climb camp. I would not trust them with any other device.

The vast majority of trad climbers will not have to hold a fallen climber for any length of time. An ATC will work for them.

I use a grigri when sport climbing.

Kristian Solem wrote
No response to my questions about how to escape a belay when your injured leader is more than halfway out the rope?

how is this any different with a grigri than an ATC...or any other device for that matter? am i missing something?

Kris continues to make absurd comments about the grigri concerning things that actually matter, but you guys are hung up on the number 45.

The grigri has been around since 1991. Close to 30 years and used all over the world. The old guys, mostly supertopo refugees, still talk about it like it's a newfangled kids toy.

Guess what guys...wiregate biners, cell phones, and grigris are not a fad. The doctor that gives you your next colonoscopy could have been born after the grigri was introduced.

It's been proven in the field, over decades, to be a solid tool. It's made climbing safer, and not just for the noobs.

Kristian Solem wrote: No response to my important point about Gri-Gri's inability to rappel on both sides of a rap line? People have died simul-rapping because of this shortcoming.

You don't need to simul-rappel.  If you have 1 Grigri and 1 ATC, the Grigri just goes first on a fixed line.  Then the 2nd person un-fixes it.

Edit: Or, as Marc pointed out, just rap a single strand on a biner block.  This may add snag risk in some scenarios, and be totally acceptable in others.

No response to my questions about how to escape a belay when your injured leader is more than halfway out the rope?

What about this scenario is unique to a Grigri?  One nice thing about a Grigri in self-rescue is it fully locks (good to back up with a catastrophe knot though), but you can release the rope easily with the lever and let some slack through if you want to do a load transfer.  The Grigri also transitions into an ascender if you need to get to your leader with zero adjustments to the setup (guide mode ATCs are pretty good here too, but require some carabiner shenanigans).

Secondly it’s heavy. 

Grigri (175g) + SmD (46g) = 221g
BD ATC Guide (80g) + Pearabiner (69g) = 149g, if you add a lightweight locker to have autoblocking capability you're right around 200g.

Here are some better thoughts about using a Grigri on alpine routes from a climber much more experienced than myself: https://cascadeclimbers.com/alpine-belay-by-blake-herrington/

The reality that most people don't seem to acknowledge is that all devices have pros and cons, and all devices are likely totally safe in the hands of a competent user.

Kyle Tarry wrote: You don't need to simul-rappel.  If you have 1 Grigri and 1 ATC, the Grigri just goes first on a fixed line.  Then the 2nd person un-fixes it.

Or you rig the rope in a biner-block at the anchor and rap on a single strand, then clean/retrieve by pulling on the knot side.