Redpoint/pinkpoint

If you walk up to a climb both you and your buddy haven't seen or climbed and you lead it thats an onsight correct? So wtf is a redpoint and pinkpoint?

redpoint is when you send after you have been on the route previously. Pinkpoint is a term that isn't used often anymore, but once referred to sending a sport or trad route with pre-placed gear

TaylorP wrote: redpoint is when you send after you have been on the route previously.

Thanks

In between onsight and redpoint is flash, where you climb a route clean with beta.  So if you can see the moves from the belay, the first climber gets the onsight and the second guy (assuming both lead it clean) gets a flash.

Pink point, seems to me, is only relevant in trad climbing at this point. 

Consider this: You have a guidebook in yer paws and it tells you a rating, bolt count and anchor info(beta) you cannot onsight this route! Guidebook info is beta and in my opinion negates any onsight claims. I have found boltlines and figured I could get up them and have; those were onsights where I had Zero knowledge of rating nor anything beyond what my eyesight told me at that moment. Guidebooks often give crux beta too which obviously blows your "onsight" but even basic beta is still route beta and can only yield a flash. My opinion.

Jeff Jones wrote: Consider this: You have a guidebook in yer paws and it tells you a rating, bolt count and anchor info(beta) you cannot onsight this route! Guidebook info is beta and in my opinion negates any onsight claims. I have found boltlines and figured I could get up them and have; those were onsights where I had Zero knowledge of rating nor anything beyond what my eyesight told me at that moment. Guidebooks often give crux beta too which obviously blows your "onsight" but even basic beta is still route beta and can only yield a flash. My opinion.

Bolts and chalked holds blew your "onsight", brah.

I think there was an amazing Enormocast about this. TAPS edition from either this last year or year before. I think the takeaway was Pinkpoint is still a good distinction to make, but it also doesn't matter and we need a new term for it.

Edit:
I think it's either
https://enormocast.com/2019/01/episode-167-taps-part-deux-aka-climbing-humor-is-dead/
or
https://enormocast.com/2018/01/episode-143-the-taps-edition-aka-kill-your-daisy-chain-with-andrew-bisharat-and-steve-dilk/

Chalked holds I never encountered on any of my onsights and rarely can you spot every bolt nor see an anchor. There really was a time when every rock out there wasnt dusted and crusted with chalk and every 5.9 and harder foot/hand hold wasnt chalk ticked by some lame ass. On Sight means the same as "upon seeing"

Jeff Jones wrote: Consider this: You have a guidebook in yer paws and it tells you a rating, bolt count and anchor info(beta) you cannot onsight this route! Guidebook info is beta and in my opinion negates any onsight claims. I have found boltlines and figured I could get up them and have; those were onsights where I had Zero knowledge of rating nor anything beyond what my eyesight told me at that moment. Guidebooks often give crux beta too which obviously blows your "onsight" but even basic beta is still route beta and can only yield a flash. My opinion.

I believe the only people's opinion that matters is pro climbers. They set the standards. Ondra onsighted a classic 14c where he knew the grade. It possibly even had some chalk on some holds. You think his onsight is invalid?  

Jeff Jones wrote: Consider this: You have a guidebook in yer paws and it tells you a rating, bolt count and anchor info(beta) you cannot onsight this route! Guidebook info is beta and in my opinion negates any onsight claims. I have found boltlines and figured I could get up them and have; those were onsights where I had Zero knowledge of rating nor anything beyond what my eyesight told me at that moment. Guidebooks often give crux beta too which obviously blows your "onsight" but even basic beta is still route beta and can only yield a flash. My opinion.

That sounds similar to being angry about sport climbers clipping pre-hung draws.

What if you read totally screwed up beta? Or you’re sand bagged? Do you get extra credit? Huh? Where’s my credits?

Pinkpoint is often used as sort of a perjorative people use to feel better about their moderate, yet somehow “purer” climbing. Pink, of course, is not manly, so if you wear your ego like a ball cup you’ll probably like this term.

Many climbers enjoy these stylistic differences in their turn, sometimes pushing difficulty on a project they’ve tried many times, or other times savoring the experience of trying something for the first time, living in the moment, and allowing that outcome to stand alone.

NegativeK wrote:

That sounds similar to being angry about sport climbers clipping pre-hung draws.

Honestly in trad climbing, if I want a true onsight experience I make sure not to look at MP or an overly descriptive guidebook.

IMO a comment articulating what where the crux is or what gear goes there significantly changes the difficulty climb. Without knowing that, every time you want to place a piece you have to think "what if I burn this piece now and I need it at the crux?" and if indeed you did burn it and do need it at the crux, you either do the crux on a runout or give up the onsight.

That said in sport climbing I don't really see as much of a distinction, though I agree that knowing the grade does change the experience. I'm not saying it's valid or invalid, but it does feel different.

abandon moderation wrote: I'm not saying it's valid or invalid, but it does feel different.

Word to that.

I just view expecting other people to fit to a rigid definition of a word as a setup for failure. Things change, which just means that we have to use more words to communicate. Not the end of the world.

Onsight: lead it clean on the first try with no prior information.

Flash: lead it clean on the first try with prior information.

Redpoint: lead it clean, just not on the first try. Generally "redpoint" implies that you projected it for a bunch of tries, but that's not a distinction I care to make in my own ticks.

Pinkpoint: a redpoint, but with prehung draws (sport) or preplaced gear (trad). It's a bit of a weird term because for sport because at high levels almost nobody is sport climbing without prehung draws. It's still a bit of a weird term for trad, because even though most high level trad climbers aren't preplacing (most) gear, it's vaguely sexist to associate the easier way of ascending with the "girly" color. I'd generally prefer to just say that I redpointed it with preplaced gear, the same way I'd mention it if someone stick clipped the first bolt/placement or preplaced just the first piece. I don't generally have a positive impression of people who make a big deal about the redpoint/pinkpoint distinction.

The concept of "red point" originated in the Frankenjura in the late 70s when German climbers would paint a little red dot under routes that had been freed. You can still see some of these at the older crags. The concept eventually made it to the U.S. in the late 80s.

"Pinkpoint" was a term coined by insecure Americans in the early 90s as a way to ridicule sport climbing tactics. 

abandon moderation wrote:

Honestly in trad climbing, if I want a true onsight experience I make sure not to look at MP or an overly descriptive guidebook.

IMO a comment articulating what where the crux is or what gear goes there significantly changes the difficulty climb. Without knowing that, every time you want to place a piece you have to think "what if I burn this piece now and I need it at the crux?" and if indeed you did burn it and do need it at the crux, you either do the crux on a runout or give up the onsight.

That said in sport climbing I don't really see as much of a distinction, though I agree that knowing the grade does change the experience. I'm not saying it's valid or invalid, but it does feel different.

I merely assert this myself: it feels way different see a crack or dihedral or sport line and give it a go and succeed versus using my beloved guide books. All are valid forms of personal achievement regardless of how we describe them. It's pretty sweet to find and climb something out of the blue and also sweet to find some interesting routes in your guide and walk away after 1 try successful. Climbing well is its own reward for certain. No admonitions or judgement just considering different feelings associated with different styles.

Don't forget brownpoints: leads that made you poop your pants.

Why doesn't MP have a tick box for that?

Andy Eiter wrote: Don't forget brownpoints: leads that made you poop your pants.

Why doesn't MP have a tick box for that?

Only cats need a box for poop.

Andy Eiter wrote: Don't forget brownpoints: leads that made you poop your pants.

Why doesn't MP have a tick box for that?

So many brownpoints....

Why all the assumption that pink is "girly" or "less manly"?  This is certainly a case where we don't need to wade into those waters.  Pink is watered down red, and I've always thought of a pinkpoint as a slightly watered down redpoint.  Simple, not sexist.