The Ethics of Crack Gloves and Tape at Indian Creek

Can’t believe nobody has brought up Monkey’s fists.

Ted Pinson wrote: Can’t believe nobody has brought up Monkey’s fists.

That's because monkey anger therapists have been working hard on that.

Tim Stich wrote: One last time. Wearing tape gloves is not an issue of ethics, but of style. 

Actually, the whole point of the OP was that in this debate (however loosely constructed it is), he DOES want to discuss gloves as an ethical, not stylistic issue.

Colonel Mustard wrote:

Sounds like a job for....bolts!

This thread has wheels!

I'm sure I'm gonna regret saying this in this thread of all places but a bolt in the overhang on incredible hands crack would've prevented the horrendous widening... and it could certainly still prevent future destruction of the climb. 

Tape or gloves, ethics or style matter not. The only way to reduce impact is to restrict access. Community enforcement of a no tape/glove rule will NEVER work. The idea of such is extremely naive.

Jack Cramer wrote:If the community wants to adopt a limited-entry permit system at Indian Creek, I won't oppose it. However, I think this policy could slow the destruction while emphasizing that the rock is a resource we should treat better.

You should've just pulled the band-aid off and gone with this. Banning gloves is a setup for troll-responses, because it's kind of silly.

Just out of curiosity, does anyone else not like taking bigger falls (here defined as falls where the gear is either just below or significantly below your feet) on the gear at Indian Creek or other soft sandstone areas?

Is it then annoying for you to have 100+ foot very aesthetic (but the definition of repetitive) climbs where the overall crux is locking off to place enough gear that multiple pieces can rip and you still won't hit the ground? So, 100+ foot pitches that climb the entire way like you are right next to the ground?

So, in short, does anyone else think Indian Creek is a bit of an overhyped climbing area? Do these same people think the area would be left with the people who truly cherish it if we just started talking about the place for what it really is, a crag with a specific season that just so happens to coincide with the time that many other places are snowed out?

Indian Creek is the convenience store of over-hyped, repetitive crack climbing.
For those of us who like to explore and possess an adventurous spirit that is just fine.

Jack Cramer wrote:

I know Brad a bit. He did use crack gloves on the Salathe. But I've watched him climb 5.13 at the creek. With bare hands.

5.13 at the creek usually doesn't have a single hand jam...

BillS wrote: Some more physics to ponder is the friction formula.  For a given mass of climber, all methods of interface with the rock are going to result in similar damage.  Less friction = more force required.

ban fat people, that's what i say!  
in all seriousness though, as a non-taper, i could give a shit less if people tape, use crack gloves, etc.

The Rave wrote:
Community enforcement of a no tape/glove rule will NEVER work. The idea of such is extremely naive.

Tell that to the Czech climbers who enforce a ban on chalk.

Scott E wrote:
5.13 at the creek usually doesn't have a single hand jam...

That's right. I forgot Belly Full of Bad Berries is a tips crack.

BillS wrote:
Between tape, shoes and cams, I'm thinking tape is at the bottom for damage. 

I agree and alluded to the outsized damage from shoes in my OP. The damage from gear was a nice addition by Devin that I did neglect.

My distant memory of Incredible Hand Crack, however, is that the crack is smoothly eroded on the inside near the crux, rather than only harsh streaks from cams tracking through the rock. This suggests to me that weighted cams likely destroy the varnish, then shoes and hands erode it away further.

I acknowledge that the link between tape/gloves isn't obvious. But here's how I see it: thurtching or flailing does more damage to the rock than climbing in a controlled, static manner. Gloves and tape eliminate the normal consequences of flailing (hand/finger cuts). Although the rock damage is primarily caused by sloppy feet or fallen-on cams when flailing occurs, banning gloves/tape would cause all of us to take a more conservative approach to our route choice to avoid the consequences of bare handed flailing.

The central issue I believe is a need to reframe how we climbers view The Creek. The fragility of the rock demands that it not be considered an area for people to learn how to crack, but rather an area were competent crack climbers can go to practice their craft. Couldn't a ban on skin protection help us change our attitudes?

BillS wrote:
Tape also prevents body oil from building up in the crack.  The first moves of Coyne's is a nightmare example.

This is an interesting point and it's probably true for most finger cracks. But on tight hands and larger, I believe palms have a lot more oil/sweat than the backs of our hands.

Video of a dude that knows what he's doing...while wearing tape.

Tape Tape Tape

Spent some time at Indian Creek years ago....all the pros out there had tape too.

abandon moderation wrote: I support this idea! But only if we also ban top roping. 

I think a TR ban would have more of an effect than a tape glove ban.

Well Jack, next time you're at the creek walk up to everyone with tape or gloves and see how your request goes over.
I see a lot of "mind your own business" and " kiss my ass" replies coming your way.

Pnelson wrote:

Actually, the whole point of the OP was that in this debate (however loosely constructed it is), he DOES want to discuss gloves as an ethical, not stylistic issue.

OK, I reread it. All I can say is *sigh* about the whole non-issue with tape. Carry on.

Jack Cramer wrote: Tell that to the Czech climbers who enforce a ban on chalk.
....

The central issue I believe is a need to reframe how we climbers view The Creek. The fragility of the rock demands that it not be considered an area for people to learn how to crack, but rather an area were competent crack climbers can go to practice their craft. Couldn't a ban on skin protection help us change our attitudes?

Just a couple things to add, I'm pretty sure the ban on chalk and cams for Czech climbers is more a matter of the style of the area, and preserving that style than of actual damage to the rock. Indian creek does not have a history of tapeless, chalkless, etc, and I can't see people accepting that becoming the style easily. 

To the point of learning how to crack climb at the creek, this seems pretty absurd to say it's not the place for people to learn to crack climb. There is probably no better place on the planet to learn, with a combination of just how parallel the cracks are, mostly featureless faces that force climbers to use the crack, and cragging style of the creek as opposed to other crack areas. Learning in this area lets climbers practice for more adventurous areas where the consequences are greater, and the low consequences and cragging atmosphere of the creek are what makes it popular.

Lastly, I don't see how the widening of cracks would ever become an access issue. Land managers probably couldn't care less about the size of these cracks, why would you unless you're climbing them.

I have a feeling removing the bolted anchors would decrease traffic and erosion more than banning gloves and tape would.

Has anyone thought about waste? I am in my 50s and the skin on the back of my hands is thinning (thanks Mum & Dad) but my primary reason for using crack gloves (I like the OR gloves) is to quit wasting all that tape and the resources needed to make it. I know tape gloves are re-usable to a degree, but doesn't the concept encourage disposability?

JNE wrote:So, in short, does anyone else think Indian Creek is a bit of an overhyped climbing area? Do these same people think the area would be left with the people who truly cherish it if we just started talking about the place for what it really is, a crag with a specific season that just so happens to coincide with the time that many other places are snowed out?

I agree with this, although whenever I bring up this point to people who love the creek, they will usually tell me to go back to the gym, or say something insulting like I would enjoy the creek more if I knew how to crack climb. Something I have seemed to notice though is that I haven't known anyone to go to the creek and not post about it somewhere on social media. Perhaps the real solution to make sure only dedicated crackheads climb there is ban posting pictures of the creek on social media...

The reason people moved away from pitons was because something better came along AND it damaged the rock less. They didn't ban pitons then decide to innovate. Make something better and the people will use it. Dont try to ban what works now and hope that the "somebody" will do "something". Thats called bitching.