New and Experienced Climbers Over 50 #6

Dallas, what you do when belaying from above is to have a "brake hand" and a "feeling hand."  The feeling hand draws in the slack, feeling for the moment when the rope comes tight,  Then the feeling hand lets back out an inch or two or three and holds while the brake hand pulls in the slack above the feeling hand position.  This goes all the way back to the hip belay; it is nothing even remotely new, and you do not need to have the second in view to do it.  But the two-stage hand procedure seems to be vanishing among practicioners of the plaquette belay.  Instead, both hands work in unison to tighten up the rope, and then the plaquette locks it in place under tension.

Sometimes, even with good feeling hand/brake hand technique, you yard in too much rope and start pulling the second.  Then you have to be able to reach your plaquette to release a little slack.  The brake hand creates a small loop of slack and then, still firmly gripping the brake strand, tilts up the plaquette so the feeling hand can pull some of the slack back through to the second,  I rather frequently see people set up plaquette belays on the anchor and then tie themselves in long so they can get near the edge and watch the second.  This puts the plaquette out of reach and prevents the belayer from making any adjustments.  Their seconds can't back down and if the rope runs over an overhang or diagonally off to the side, the result can easily be pulling second off into space,

It is a different matter if the follower, for whatever reason, wants to be continually held tight; tha'st their choice of course (if the route allows for it).  I would hope that the reason isn't that they've only experienced that type of belay and are uncomfortable making the moves "free of the rope," as Lori says.

Señor Arroz wrote:  I guess my sweat tastes like nectar.

I think this will be my mantra for the week. :)

ErikaNW wrote:

I think this will be my mantra for the week. :)

Good one for life. 

Reading all these responses to the question about slack in the rope on TR... I'm laughing hard.  There have been times I have asked if my belayer thinks he's got to physically haul me up.  I know it's bad when I have to ask for slack just to make a small lateral move.  Maybe everyone is terrified of a fall?  But I do appreciate the times when Chris will say "Lori, I'm going to take all the slack out of the rope before you get off the deck on this one..." if those first moves are dicey.    

Senor has said more than once that being a good belayer is worth it's weight.  I'm really trying to learn.  I want to be a good partner... the downside of being a student or client is how much I get catered to, and not much is expected.  Rgold... you wrote an article something like How To Get Asked Out on a Second Date.  I think I said I would need therapy after that.     At the time, I understood very little of what you wrote.  I'd like to read it again, to see where I'm at today.  Do you have a link?  If not... I'll find it.  
-------------------------

Climbing this weekend... man, I feel like someone just left the barndoor open, and they're going to have to come find me. At no point was I ready to go home.    I'm feeling so strong these days.  But it doesn't seem like moving into more lead and multi-pitch climbing is just a left brain intellectual decision.  It feels more like its an evolution I can't rush.  I still get rattled.  I still get fast low blood sugars.  There is a (lack of) stability that I can't fake.

Still... word got back to Gaines the routes I was climbing and he was shocked.  Did he not think I could handle it? 

Long talk with Ryan last week on the lead thing at the gym.  Bless his heart... he has to choose his words carefully.     He took his job seriously when I said "I entrust myself to you... " back in the beginning.  "Lori, my number one goal has been injury prevention and so far it's worked.  On a normal or good day you could easily pass the lead test.  On a bad day, maybe not. But where someone half your age could take a hard lead fall and walk away, you may not.  I want to make sure you are strong enough to handle anything that may come along."  ("are you calling me OLD?"   )   

He'd do anything I demanded, including get me that lead card today.  But we negotiated... and decided to work hard through the summer.  If at the end of summer I'm still not easily climbing 11a... we'll do the lead thing privately.  I think we have a deal.   Probably the same goes for outdoor climbing.  I have to trust the experienced eye of those I'm out with.  And it's all so much fun... 

 Seems we all take a different road to the same place.  Dallas and Barb... what a team!  Senor... I know those bees.  Glad you had a good time!  John, for a minute I thought you had a ghost writer... a more serious and sober post (on balance).  Erika, I hope you did get out after all.  Is Helen still mowing?

PS. I was looking for an image of 'cow out of the barn'... I had no idea that cows really do leap for joy.  I've never actually SEEN  a cow out of the barn... but now I know it's a good metaphor.

Lori Milas wrote: Rgold... you wrote an article something like How To Get Asked Out on a Second Date.  I think I said I would need therapy after that.     At the time, I understood very little of what you wrote.  I'd like to read it again, to see where I'm at today.  Do you have a link?  If not... I'll find it.  

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/110204013/how-to-get-asked-out-on-a-second-date

Lori Milas wrote: Is Helen still mowing?

H is at goblin city climbing with Fritz and eating burritos..... ;)​https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117050675/free-breakfast-burritos-at-city-of-rocks-sunday-morning#ForumMessage-117059520
At least she was........

rgold wrote: But the two-stage hand procedure seems to be vanishing among practicioners of the plaquette belay. 

First of all I had to look up  "plaquette".  Ok, I am pretty sure my bd guide atc is a  plaquette, but then so is my grigri, kind of.  Somewhere I learned that you always maintain positive control of your belay device ( plaquette).  To me, that meant you couldn't be out of reach of it.  If you can't see nor hear your climber and you are not using the two hand method how in the world could you possibly control the rope to keep your second from taking a huge fall?  I have only done a double top belay once, duh, I am the weak climber and usually following, but sometimes we do a group climb and I am in the middle. So I know how. Mostly I use the grigri, pull, lock, test; repeat. Easy to tie off, easy to drop a tag or tie off a prussik helper. Actually I have never done this, one of the benefits of being the weakest climber in the group. But I know how and I practice it from time to time.  

Dallas R wrote: As far as bringing the second up....  the catch here is that most often I cannot see the second.  What do you do then, tight, loose, can't hear for the wind etc., so my philosophy is snug, when there is looseness on the line I draw it up, I can tell when a climber fully weights the rope as in a fall or hangdog, then when they get it together and step up I take the small amount of slack.  It's important to remember the route enough to know not to pull too tight, that will sometimes pull the climber off, as in transitioning from under a bulge. Not being able to see or hear your second makes top belaying a bit more challenging.

Dallas, if at all possible, best bet is to extend your anchor tie-in so that you can see your second. But you probably already know that.

Señor Arroz wrote: I had to take my helmet OFF yesterday because it was creating a hazard. On the 2nd and 3rd pitch there were some pesky bees (actual honeybees, not yellowjackets) that kept flying into the vent holes of my helmet for sweat. I took it off and hung it on the anchor where they happily just lapped up the moisture. I guess my sweat tastes like nectar.

You can come on out to CO and sweat for my bees anytime. We can even do some climbing :)

Dallas R wrote:

 Somewhere I learned that you always maintain positive control of your belay device ( plaquette).  To me, that meant you couldn't be out of reach of it.

Well, I agree, but that's not how people, including some guides some of the time, are using plaquettes.  For example,

The Raven wrote:

You can come on out to CO and sweat for my bees anytime. We can even do some climbing :)

I knew eventually things would get awkward..... ;)

Rgold ... hallelujah. I read your article and this time it made (almost) perfect sense. No therapy needed! We’ve come a long way baby.  (Thank you!)

Dallas... you are humble and genuine and always open. I do not say this from knowledge but just a sense of you—you are likely not a weak climber.   You are reliable. You work hard to get things right. You work behind the scenes to keep everyone safe. And I’ll bet you are stronger on the rock than you see.  Kudos to you and your genuine skill and strength.

I say this also from the badgering I got to cease calling myself a beginning climber. I now keep that to myself... I’ll always think of myself as a beginner, but have to finally admit I could be an “advanced” beginner.   

Rich.... thanks for dishing out all this good info. Third photo down on what you posted.... I was surprised the first time I watched someone set up like that. I thought “looks shaky, what if 2nd falls?” Sure enuf they did and the leader lost his grip on the line going to climber as it went tight and the rope went into the crack at feet... follower went down a bunch, rope got stuck in crack...
All this new stuff- I don’t think is an improvement on tried and true practices.

Lori... good to see you (and OLH) improving keep it up! And please just call yourself a climber- you have earned it! 

Guy Keesee wrote: Rich.... thanks for dishing out all this good info. Third photo down on what you posted.... I was surprised the first time I watched someone set up like that. I thought “looks shaky, what if 2nd falls?” Sure enuf they did and the leader lost his grip on the line going to climber as it went tight and the rope went into the crack at feet... follower went down a bunch, rope got stuck in crack...
All this new stuff- I don’t think is an improvement on tried and true practices.

Lori... good to see you (and OLH) improving keep it up! And please just call yourself a climber- you have earned it! 

I watched that same thing happen one day. Leaders foot was pinned under the rope, above the edge, with the second's full body weight on it. He was yelling for the guy to get off (unwieght) the rope. Took a couple good minutes for the second to go from hanging on the guy's foot to back on the rock.

Good times.......

John Barritt wrote: H is at goblin city climbing with Fritz and eating burritos..... ;)https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/117050675/free-breakfast-burritos-at-city-of-rocks-sunday-morning#ForumMessage-117059520
At least she was........

I believe they headed back to regular life yesterday, but I can confirm she was out at City with Fritz and co. I can also happily report that our paths finally crossed at a climber gathering hosted by a delightful local climber. 

Alicia Sokolowski wrote:

I believe they headed back to regular life yesterday, but I can confirm she was out at City with Fritz and co. I can also happily report that our paths finally crossed at a climber gathering hosted by a delightful local climber. 

When good belayers turn bad.... 

RKM demonstrating important fine points of post hip belay technique.

Just rolled back in to Boise. Burritos were great! Funnel cloud was awesome! Nailed my first 5.5!

And got to spend time with my family.

Alicia and I didn't climb, but we ate Rock City pizza, and got to spend a truly great evening!

Trip was wonderful. Don't ask about the lawn.

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

When good belayers turn bad.... 

RKM demonstrating important fine points of post hip belay technique.

Just rolled back in to Boise. Burritos were great! Funnel cloud was awesome! Nailed my first 5.5!

And got to spend time with my family.

Alicia and I didn't climb, but we ate Rock City pizza, and got to spend a truly great evening!

Trip was wonderful. Don't ask about the lawn.

Best, Helen

Priceless..........

John Barritt wrote:

Priceless..........

Yes. 

John, you have been around bees. You get 30,000 around you and ignoring the buzz is impossible ;)

Guy Keesee wrote: Rich.... thanks for dishing out all this good info. Third photo down on what you posted.... I was surprised the first time I watched someone set up like that. I thought “looks shaky, what if 2nd falls?” Sure enuf they did and the leader lost his grip on the line going to climber as it went tight and the rope went into the crack at feet... follower went down a bunch, rope got stuck in crack...
All this new stuff- I don’t think is an improvement on tried and true practices.

The new stuff is good if you don't think it applies to 100% of all situations.  It's not a one-size-fits-all technique.  The "problem" with the plaquettes is that some folks do use them all the time, including when the a plaquette belay is far from optimal,

Nivel Egres wrote: Unrelated to climbing, I could use some life advice on a touchy subject.

A little while ago I gave some money to a child in need for some medical stuff. I did it via a friend (he runs a charity for these types of cases) and thought that he kept my name out of it. Apparently, the procedure was a success, the kid got better and the family somehow figured out who I am. They got in touch and want me to come out to Dayton, OH and join them for X-mass dinner.  Besides ignoring their attempts at communicating (got a card a week ago and a voice mail last night, from the patriarch of the family), is there a graceful way to say "thanks, but no thanks"?

Just tell them that their offer was more than thanks enough for doing the right thing but that your busy schedule does not permit attendance.