Climber dies after fall in Poudre Canyon on Saturday

Tradiban wrote:

How so? Don't concede defeat yet!

Nothing is perfect of course but the Smart, Jul have a backup, the ATC doesn't. The Gri has a long and consistent history of people getting dropped, we can argue on the reasons for that but I would bet that if everyone switched to Smart/Jul we would have alot less droppings.

Defeat? I honestly don’t know what that word means here. 

For some, an assisted brake does not make a difference in making “the choice.”  And for a few like me, the choice is decidedly anti-assisted-brake.  Though you may see me using one if required by a gym or a friend.  :)

I’d be happy to discuss more about this in a different thread (the ump-tenth). Even there though, arriving at an agreement is not my expectation.

Bill Lawry wrote:

Defeat? I honestly don’t know what that word means here. 

For some, an assisted brake does not make a difference in making “the choice.”  And for a few like me, the choice is decidedly anti-assisted-brake.  Though you may see me using one if required by a gym or a friend.  :)

I’d be happy to discuss more about this in a different thread (the ump-tenth). Even there though, arriving at an agreement is not my expectation.

Ok, why are you anti-assisted-brake? What is the disadvantage?

All from my multi-pitch centric view ...

The disadvantage of brake assisted devices is primarily the natural  growth of poor belay habits and reflexes.  

Nothing makes me more confident on lead than a belayer who’s default hand position is fully braked.  I mean, the only time they come out of that is just the amount necessary to pay out or taken in rope.  Afterwards, they just naturally / habitually / reflexively go to locked off. And when catching a fall or holding my weight, they know they must firmly lock off or I get dropped.

Brake assisted devices do not help engrave that into the mind of a beginner. And they slowly drain that away from the experienced belayer .... unless other measures are taken. 

Why is that a disadvantage to me? Because brake assisted devices sometimes fail to engage. And because ya drop the thing from some pitches up and suddenly we have a potentially worthless belay.

Now, if I had a regular hang dogging partner, I’d likely use a more active brake-assisting device (e.g., more active than the Revo).  And I’d even use a brake assisting device simply for no other reason than my partner wanted me to. You see, I’m not exactly a purist about this. :)

Eric, you are not at fault. This is a dangerous sport and barring a flagrant mistake on the part of the belayer (which did not occur in this instance) it is the responsibility of the climber to manage and assess decking potential. These things happen even when everyone does their job, it is the nature of the sport. Each of us is taking our life in our hands each time we rope up. My condolences to the family and deep respect for the departed. Sending love to everyone involved. 

One thing I see done so seldom, that can help with hard clips in groundfall territory is to use an over the shoulder, or even longer sling so you don't have to yard rope above your head under duress.  You can clip it off shorter if you like afterward. When I lead Ventilator at Cathedral, the first clip is crucial to ankle survival, and I have a sling pre-clipped to the rope long enough to make the clip without ever picking up any rope at all. I know it's not cool, but it's legit, and safe. I do the same thing on Revolt of the Dike Brigades first pitch.

BillS has a point here (except for the dynamite part) There’s been a ton of discussion on belay techniques and devices, but what about this ROUTE?   I’ve heard mentioned that it was retro-bolted?  Not sure of the history here, and I’m hardly from the pro-bolt camp, but maybe some adjustments need to be considered?  Not advocating anything at this point, but I’d be interested to hear more input on this angle, especially from the FA or whoever bolted it if we are still kicking the can here on analysis...

Mark Pilate wrote: BillS has a point here (except for the dynamite part) There’s been a ton of discussion on belay techniques and devices, but what about this ROUTE?   I’ve heard mentioned that it was retro-bolted?  Not sure of the history here, and I’m hardly from the pro-bolt camp, but maybe some adjustments need to be considered?  Not advocating anything at this point, but I’d be interested to hear more input on this angle, especially from the FA or whoever bolted it if we are still kicking the can here on analysis...

I had assume retro-bolt meant upgraded bolts as opposed to retro-development as in adding bolts where there were none before (as some posting here generally advocate).

Like BillS, I’m more with the camp of just walking away or bail if one is not up to the route. 

Serene...  R = Redundancy.

ATC lacks redundancy.

While belaying, I was almost taken out with a rock (I don't think the helmet would have done much).  At least the assisted locking device gives some extra protection for the leader and prevent two possible accidents.

Side note, I was dropped by a new belayer (using an ATC) who at just taken a course at a gym.  Glad I did a few practice falls at the first bolt.  Could have been prevent with an assisted locking device.

Should we start a new thread on this topic since we're off track?

I’m with you on that one Bill L.  But I’m curious if it was rap bolted to begin with.  Was it intended to be spicy? Also, as long as the description and heads up is accurate, people can make that decision.  There was another thread debating the meanings of PG/R/X.    If someone dies climbing it “normally” and by just blowing a clip, should it get an X rating ?  Kind of the definition of X in my book (death or serious injury may result if you blow it). 

Bill Lawry wrote: The disadvantage of brake assisted devices is primarily the natural  growth of poor belay habits and reflexes.  

Nothing makes me more confident on lead than a belayer who’s default hand position is fully braked.  I mean, the only time they come out of that is just the amount necessary to pay out or taken in rope.  Afterwards, they just naturally / habitually / reflexively go to locked off. And when catching a fall or holding my weight, they know they must firmly lock off or I get dropped.

Brake assisted devices do not help engrave that into the mind of a beginner. And they slowly drain that away from the experienced belayer .... unless other measures are taken. 

Belay devices don't teach bad belaying habits, people do. The common argument that assisted braking devices make people worse at belaying just means that we need to do a better job of teaching people how to belay. I cannot think of a single legitimate argument that ATCs should be used except for the price point on ATCs making climbing more accessible to lower income people.

I don't wear a seatbelt so I can keep my reflexes on a Bruce Lee level

Airbags are aid.

I gave two reasons. A third has been added.

Still, looks like I’m in the minority in an unruly crowd.

Climb on.

BillS wrote: Love the ego in the remaining comments - for a fuk'n 11b.  Everyone please just STFU and learn how to bolt a route why don't you?

But also recognise that not all bolted routes are 'sport' routes.  For many and often historic reasons some X rated bolted routes and pitches exist.  (Take snake dike as an example).

Just last week I did a route that had its original bolts replaced but had kept the spacing.  I was facing a ground-fall on every clip. The FA of this route was done free solo. Climber should recognise the risks of the climb they choose.

Patto, I recommend avoiding Stone Mountain at NC.  Its like Snake Dike but for most routes...

Tim Lutz wrote:

Honnold and Tommy use the Gri Gri

Honnold also free solos - not necessarily someone to emulate on all his choices!

May Eric and the family go gentle with themselves during this time of loss.

I have not been on the route. Still ...

Looks like there was a single bolt on the FA back in the 80s. Now there are a dozen with the additional bolts ok’d by the FAist.

In addition, MP user Guy H posts that the second bolt is at one’s ankles when clipping the third bolt.  

BillS wrote: If you’re discussing drilling bolts in OS ground up 80’s style, then please go start another thread on an old and boring subject.  

I'm not sure what the reasons for the type of bolting makes.  Whatever the reasons are if the bolting allows serious falls it should be treated as such whether it is the 80s or 2019.

BillS wrote:Meanwhile, my read of the record here on this route’s MP.com page - the bolts as presently located is clearly an incompetently executed top down rehearsed retrobolt job that just claimed a life.  The comment section is a full-on dumpster fire of very small climbers trying to act like big boy climbers and failing at it.

In short - the danger was acknowledged, manufactured after rehearsal, and left to sit without warning for the unsuspecting OS climber - as some sort of test.  This is all about ego.

Big conclusions there.

patto wrote:
I'm not sure what the reasons for the type of bolting makes.  Whatever the reasons are if the bolting allows serious falls it should be treated as such whether it is the 80s or 2019.

I don’t think anyone is in disagreement on the following points; 

• It’s ultimately up to the leader to climb accordingly to the route and his abilities. 
• History of the route should be respected 

However, in this case it does seem that there are legitimate questions on how the route was presented (was it openly rated R/X before this?) so that such decisions could be made...
And how it was retro-bolted.  If it’s true as posted above that the second bolt is at your feet/ankles for the third clip, then I would tend to give benefit of the doubt and say the bolt placement issue is more accidental or inherently difficult due to terrain than due to sheer incompetence or ego. 
Regardless, the focus should be on avoiding repeat or similar tragic outcomes in the future.  
As for giving a leader a “heads up” that a route is R or X rated, what about painting the first bolt black ?  Or a black band on the hanger.  This would provide a clear indication to someone not familiar with the area or the route what lies beyond, and may prevent an unintentional climb of that nature.  

Mark Pilate wrote: This would provide a clear indication to someone not familiar with the area or the route what lies beyond, and may prevent an unintentional climb of that nature.  

For what its worth, I'm not familiar with the area.  And painting a bolt black would not provide a clear indication to me.  I've never heard of that practice.

Surely if the first three bolts can be seen and also the immediate terrain then that is a clear enough indication?  Certainly clearer than painting a bolt a certain color.