Lowering two climbers

+1 for the LSD method. I haven't had any problems with a smooth lower. A few situations where it works well.

• You don't quite know where the next set of anchors are so you lower one person who can focus on finding the anchors (especially if the anchors are far left or right)
• Lowering one person 60m to the ground rather than two 30m raps. Think party of 3 (this makes one person less at each rap) or when one person wants to get down and start setting up for the next climb.
• At some multi-pitch areas that require a 2-rope rap you can climb with one rope by lowering the first person to the ground and then having them send up a tag line. No need to carry around two ropes.

As with most things climbing, it's a good technique to add to your toolbox. Not right in every situation but worth knowing how to do.

FrankPS wrote:

When would the situation call for this?

Frank are you talking about lowering two climbers or the LSD/Chauvin lower?  

Chris Walden wrote:

Frank are you talking about lowering two climbers or the LSD/Chauvin lower?  

Yes sir!

coppolillo wrote:

Thank, Derek & Keith, for pimping the book! Here's a pic of the LSD Lower...which will be in Climbing this next issue and covered comprehensively in the book....read up on it and practice on the ground before going live--and notice the back-up! Smoother, safer, easier than unweighting/releasing the blocking 'biner...

And apologies on the gates facing the rock--somehow my rad model (you know her, Derek!) and I twisted the anchor when setting up the LSD...ack! We'll fix it in the second edition...

(Oh, and edited to add: I haven't messed with lowering two climbers with the LSD...but you could block one while you lower the first...but I'll look into it. Thought I'd throw this out there, as we're discussing the recommended methods by BD and Petzl...

I've been rappelling using something similar for years. I imagine it's fine for lowering as well.

https://www.mountainproject.com/forum/topic/110811001/autoblock-or-prusik?page=3#ForumMessage-110855953

LSD--Load Strand Direct....not quite sure who the inventor is...but Chauvin first showed it to me. 

And I think Frank asked about its application---guiding an ice climb this fall, one experienced guest, one less so....so I had the less experienced guest climb first, having prepped him that if he was done for the day or "over it" (this was the last climb of the day, way steeper than what we'd been on), he could just take and let me know he was ready to lower. I told him at that point I'd just ask him to hang for a sec. When he said, "Take!", I built my friction-hitch back-up, then also tied an overhand-on-a-bight behind the friction-hitch (third hand, whatever we're calling it) and clipped it into my belay loop. The overhand acts as a fail-safe in case something goes haywire or my third-hand/friction-hitch doesn't engage. So, that process takes about 30-45 seconds...then you call down for him to unweight momentarily, clip his strand thru the locker in front of the device (this would be the orange locker in the above photo), and this creates the LSD--once he reweights the rope, a bit of rope oozes through the plaquette and the third-hand engages--when you're confident the third-hand has engaged, you drop the overhand from your belay loop, untie it, and lower......

Now, if the follower can't unweight, then we build a "Temporary Ledge"---also described in the upcoming tech tip in Climbing and also in the book. The "official" or "recommended" method for lowering seconds on a locked plaquette works, but it requires managing both the lower and unweighting the blocking carabiner--and this is where some folks have had accidents---unweighting the blocking carabiner happens suddenly and it surprises the belayer...the LSD is smoother, more predictable, and has the advantage of only requiring the belayer to lower the climber--not manage unweighting the blocking carabiner simultaneously. It also retains some inherent friction in the system, so it's much more controlled. Check it out, gang! 

There is a much simpler way to lower two people at once then the double rope scenario described above. Tie a bowline on a bite in the end of the rope, making two long loops about 3 feet long.
Clip each loop to the belay loop of the two climbers with a locker (or maybe two if that floats your boat). Lower away from the top anchor, with an LSD, Munter, or maybe super Munter if you need some extra friction. You are just using one rope, both climbers are next to one another so no risk of rock fall, and two people get to the ground just about as fast as lowering one.

And yes, the anchor needs to be absolutely stout.

image credit:
https://www.alpineinstitute.com/catalog/technical-self-rescue-for-climbers

John Godino wrote: There is a much simpler way to lower two people at once then the double rope scenario described above. Tie a bowline on a bite in the end of the rope, making two long loops about 3 feet long.
Clip each loop to the belay loop of the two climbers with a locker (or maybe two if that floats your boat). Lower away from the top anchor, with an LSD, Munter, or maybe super Munter if you need some extra friction. You are just using one rope, both climbers are next to one another so no risk of rock fall, and two people get to the ground just about as fast as lowering one.

And yes, the anchor needs to be absolutely stout.

image credit:
https://www.alpineinstitute.com/catalog/technical-self-rescue-for-climbers

John - To be clear this isn't what the photo depicts.  Typically in scenarios for lowering two climbers on a single rope one will already be tied into the end and an even cleaner method is to tie a figure eight on a bight about 3' up from the climber on the end, cowtail the loop and attach climber #2 (that's what I believe is showed in this photo.)  A bowline on a bight or a double loop figure eight would require climbers untying not a huge deal but this setup is faster and provides more security...

You could always tie a blocking knot in one brake strand, lower one climber in the standard approved manner, then undo the knot and lower the other.

If the ledge was large you could have had them unweight the rope and then you don't need to fool around with slinging and flipping the device under load. Just use LSD method as mentioned.

See YouTube vid on quick up and down top managed sites.

If they don't teach this in rock guiding, don't do it. This seems impractical and asking for trouble. Just, too much. The atc is made to lead belay twin ropes n all, so I can see how lowering two strands could work, but it's dumb to do it, just to prove that you can.

"lowering in guide mode is finicky, requires a backup, and can be dangerous"

+1