Partner is making safety mistakes while climbing...and is also my life partner---how to talk with him?

Hey,

Recently my boyfriend and I started climbing a decent amount together. We got all our own gear so we no longer need to rely on our friends, which is great. BUT, the past two times we've gone he's made some pretty eyebrow-raising mistakes that luckily didn't end in injury. Of course, I am concerned with his life and well-being as well as mine. For some background, I am overly cautious in most situations, but I think that hopefully taking my time and being healthily-nervous, having some "respect" for the hazards of climbing, have worked out for me so far.  Because of this, he knows I am super-safe and though he does not discount how I feel and how I like to be safe, I think that when I communicate my concerns to him he thinks I may be a bit over the top safe.

This brings me to the last two times we climbed: he was up at the chains and locked in with his personal, then, as he was untying his rope to put it though the chains, he took a bite of the rope, UNLOCKED his personal, and put the bite inside, then relocked (i'm viewing this all from the ground with my chin on the dirt), then I asked him to belay me from the top of a route so I could clean to him. As I got to the last bolt I saw that he was anchored into the chains (thankfully) but my rope was ONLY THROUGH HIS ATC, not the chains, no other caribeaners or draws. Luckily this route was super easy. I maintained my composure and calmly explained why this was incorrect and how unsafe this was.

After we got safely to the ground, I explained the things that he had done the past few times and why I was concerned. I was a bit railed up at that point and we weren't going to continue climbing that night, so I didn't press the situation.

My main thing is: has anyone else had this situation with someone who is also their S.O.? How did you approach this situation and was it resolved? Overall, if we can't climber together anymore that is the least of my concerns. He will still go climbing and I want him and everyone he climbs with to be safe as well.

Thanks for any tips!

H G wrote: Hey,

Recently my boyfriend and I started climbing a decent amount together. We got all our own gear so we no longer need to rely on our friends, which is great. BUT, the past two times we've gone he's made some pretty eyebrow-raising mistakes that luckily didn't end in injury. Of course, I am concerned with his life and well-being as well as mine. For some background, I am overly cautious in most situations, but I think that hopefully taking my time and being healthily-nervous, having some "respect" for the hazards of climbing, have worked out for me so far.  Because of this, he knows I am super-safe and though he does not discount how I feel and how I like to be safe, I think that when I communicate my concerns to him he thinks I may be a bit over the top safe.

This brings me to the last two times we climbed: he was up at the chains and locked in with his personal, then, as he was untying his rope to put it though the chains, he took a bite of the rope, UNLOCKED his personal, and put the bite inside, then relocked (i'm viewing this all from the ground with my chin on the dirt), then I asked him to belay me from the top of a route so I could clean to him. As I got to the last bolt I saw that he was anchored into the chains (thankfully) but my rope was ONLY THROUGH HIS ATC, not the chains, no other caribeaners or draws. Luckily this route was super easy. I maintained my composure and calmly explained why this was incorrect and how unsafe this was.

After we got safely to the ground, I explained the things that he had done the past few times and why I was concerned. I was a bit railed up at that point and we weren't going to continue climbing that night, so I didn't press the situation.

My main thing is: has anyone else had this situation with someone who is also their S.O.? How did you approach this situation and was it resolved? Overall, if we can't climber together anymore that is the least of my concerns. He will still go climbing and I want him and everyone he climbs with to be safe as well.

Thanks for any tips!

Neither of these "mistakes" are actually mistakes.  It is perfectly acceptable to belay without a redirect and has been done that way for many generations and can in many circumstances actually be safer than belaying with a redirect through the anchors.  As far as unlocking his anchor biner to clip the rope to it and then relocking it, most people don't use lockers anyway as two non-locking biners are perfectly fine and most people just use quickdraws which don't have lockers on them (talking about single pitch cragging here which is the majority of climbing that happens).  Opening the biner is also fine as the biner was weighted, so there is no way for it to come unclipped and open gate strength is way more than necessary for the static weight of a hanging climber.  I am also assuming that there was still a second, closed and locked biner for redundancy.

its a S.O., explain your POV and ask them to follow your terms or talk it through till you feel and understand his methods are truly safe ... if that doesn't ease your mind, find a new SO to climb with...

There are times (I’m thinking primarily multipitch trad), where sometimes it makes sense to not belay a leader through the masterpoint, but instead thru a single piece, so that the belayer (anchored to masterpoint) absorbs impact during a fall prior to the anchor absorbing impact.  That’s probably thread drift.

More to the point, I’m not convinced that belaying you up directly and solely off the ATC is a safety issue - your partner was still anchored in and could catch you should you fall.  He would certainly absorb more direct force (directly between himself and anchor), so there could be a comfort issue; in addition, it would perhaps make escaping the belay more difficult (or at least requiring of a different process) were you to be incapacitated.

Your first point (coming off his personal) is almost certainly a safety issue, but one he was taking specifically upon himself, i.e. you were not put directly in harms way.  I’m not trying to belittle the incident, I just don’t know enough to know how concerned to be.  It’s one thing if he was oblivious to his choices, another if he made a conscious decision based on his own personal risk assessment at the time.

I’m curious to hear feedback from others in the MP community on both counts.  Regardless, the best approach is to have an open and honest discussion with him, in particular if you have safety concerns - if he’s not willing to dissect his actions, or at least openly defend them, you might need a better partner ;)

(Edit - sorry, some of this covered above while I was typing...)

Paul Hutton wrote:{edited out by Admin, see Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.}

Seriously dude? In the women's forum no less? Take the trolling elsewhere.

If your partner doesn't know what he's doing and is doing these questionable actions without full awareness of why he's doing them, the risk, and how to mitigate it, then yes these things are very sketchy. If he is an experienced climber and takes calculated risk because of some factors that he can clearly articulate, then no it's not sketchy. Experienced folks can and do things not by the book, but if you're newer than most common wisdom says that you should stick to SOP until you know why and when you don't need to.

Also if it makes your partner uncomfortable, you should be willing to change what you do (or find a different partner)

As was previously pointed out, belaying indirect (straight off the harness without redirect) is not a mistake, is actually quite common, and is absolutely safe as long as the belayer is anchored. You might want to research multiple ways people belay and handle themselves at the stations before calling somebody out. Then you can have a productive discussion about personal preferences and dial down your systems.

As for the first mistake, I'm not sure I understand what happened. Was he setting up rappel? Otherwise why untie at all? Was there any other redundancy in the system?

Finally, to address your communication question: regardless of whether your partner is your SO or a friend (i.e. they're not a stranger) and you still believe their behavior is dangerous, I would suggest saying calmly that you need to be in the right headspace to climb, and you can't get there if you have safety concerns, so you ask them to help you by playing by the book. Then you explain how you want things done (preferably support your arguments by books / guides / MP threads that have discussed what's the safest way), while avoiding blaming or shaming or being angry. Something like "when I set up rappel, I think the safest method is ... and since I'm concerned for you I think this can work for you too".

Good luck!

Deliberately opening (but not unclipping!) an anchor biner temporarily is not ideal but not something that would spook me. However I would advise him not to make a habit of doing it because it is unnecessary with proper planning.

Belaying a second directly off the harness is not a concern unless there is a possibility the belayer could be pulled over an edge.

Your concerns are in the grey area of what are generally considered to be safe practices, and few veteran climbers would be bothered by these specific examples. It comes down to personal tolerance. Some are fine with this stuff, some get a little nervous.

These issues can and will come up with any partner. And someday somebody that learned different approaches may tell you that one of your practices is unsafe. It's a constant process of learning, refinement, and adaptation.

Paul Hutton wrote:Stating your concern and talking about it is cool, but making someone make changes is annoying. The great thing about climbing is that there are different ways of getting around hurdles, and ways of spicing it up a bit.

NorCalNomad wrote:

.....this WHOLE thread?

Safety issues as taught by gyms and REI courses are over the top for the most part, and seldom teach the many multiple SAFE ways to do things. They teach one way, and seem to insist it is the ONLY way, which is not true. I don't know if the OP learned from a gym, but it sounds like that may be the case.

On a super easy climb I have given a simple hip belay because I knew my partner a) wasn't going to fall; b) he was climbing fast and a hip belay allowed me to pull up rope apace; c) I am comfortable giving a hip belay and have held falls that way before. So using a belay device off the harness is no problem, more uncomfortable for him than dangerous to you...a redirect would have been better.

Opening up weighted biners is usually not a problem at a belay, but it isn't best practice. I only carry two lockers on my person even on long routes, so him not having another locker on a sport route isn't unreasonable.

But he is dismissive of your feelings, which you have to ask yourself if you are OK with. Does he do that when the issue is one of your core beliefs too? Have to re-evaluate your sitch if that is the case...

If he's a good S.O. he will accept your request for changes regardless of if what he does is "safe" or "un-safe".

Paul Hutton wrote: {edited out by Admin, see Guideline #1: Don't be a jerk.}

Dude, fuck. off. 

OP - if you're not a troll ( I see you signed up an hour ago) It's ALWAYS appropriate to speak up about things that you questions or make you feel unsafe. At worse, you'll learn it's ok and pick up a new trick. At best, you'll save yourself or your partner from serious injury.

Edited to add - I actually don't think you're a troll. I'm in many women's climbing/outdoors groups on facebook and these types of questions pop up all of the time. Not surprised that someone would create a fresh account here to ask, as those are closed groups so they know the person in question won't see it.

Relationship Red Flag: Asking mountain project how to bring this up with your Boyfriend

Then again I do not know you or your relationship beyond a paragraph of text so dont take that to seriously. 

H G wrote: 
Thanks for any tips!

Would your SO object to taking a multi-pitch class with you and a real guide? A bit expensive, but might be worth it. And fun. 

PS - I was advised by my wife that instead of saying things like "YOU did this, it was unsafe" I should instead say things like "I felt that doing things this way was unsafe, it would make me feel better if you did things other way".

I don't think you have to be married to take out a life insurance policy on someone...

not sayin', just sayin'

H G wrote:

...he knows I am super-safe and though he does not discount how I feel and how I like to be safe, I think that when I communicate my concerns to him he thinks I may be a bit over the top safe.

Based on what you wrote here, you believe he IS discounting how you like to feel safe, whether he really is or not. This is a big problem. If you and your SO can't have an honest two-way conversation about this, then part ways immediately.

There is no such thing as 'over the top safe' when it comes to climbing. The stakes are high. Everyone has their own safety threshold and comfort zone, and partnerships are about compatibility. Climbing is best done with a partner with compatible safety standards.

If possible, take some local climbing courses together. That should be helpful. 

Matt N wrote: I don't think you have to be married to take out a life insurance policy on someone...

You don't. The insurance company will gladly take your premium payments.

But when it comes time to collect, you may have some splainin to do...

You’ve got plenty of analysis on whether your partner’s method is correct or safe, so I’m not going to get into that. But the key to any relationship/partnership is not to figure out who’s right, but how the two of you come to a middle point and work together. My wife doesn’t climb, but we have plenty of disagreements from how to discipline our children to how often to clean the house. I may think I’m correct all the time, but that will do nothing except destroy our relationship. So the key is to settle on something we’re both ok with. Same with climbing partners, I may be perfectly fine with two quick draws as an anchor on a sport route, but if I have someone who prefer me build a quad anchor, I’ll do it even if I think it’s way too much. As long as my partner’s method is not unsafe, I will make the compromise because it’s also about feeling safe when climbing (even if it’s over the top safe). So talk with your SO, but don’t focus on who’s right and who’s wrong. Focus on how you both can come to a middle point that will work for you both. So maybe your SO need to do some things even if he thinks it’s over the top just to ease your mind, and you need to learn more about the way he does things which may be completely safe, and learn to trust that. You both need to work on it to make the partnership work out.

I think it's worth asking here if OP's climbing partner/SO knew that belaying directly off a harness was safe when he did it. If he knew it was safe and did it, then it's just something of a minor miscommunication; while you were never actually in danger, you deserve to have a climbing partner who uses methods to make you feel safe. If OP's SO didn't know that belaying directly off a harness was safe, then there's a much bigger problem--a lack of intentionality, of knowledge, and a willingness to be cavalier about safety. That would be the problem, not what happened in this one instance.

So the case may be that your SO is doing things the climbing community considers to be safe, but which are not within your boundary of acceptable risk. I had a partner once who would get touchy if I took him off belay without telling him, even if I could see he was already clipped into the anchor. Not how I would do it, but a pretty reasonable request when the stakes are so high. You might be the same type of climber, and that's OK. 

wonderwoman wroteI would suggest something like, 'let's look at how to be most efficient and safe'.  Spend a night playing with gear and watching youtube videos.  Practice together from the ground so that you can learn and move fluidly together at belay stations.  Practice being neat and efficient.

One of the things I love best about climbing is the opportunity to always learn.  It's pretty awesome.

I was going to say just this thing. Look into AMGA "best practices" and discuss the pros and cons of doing things that way vs. other ways you have learned. When you learn together, you will give your SO the feeling that you are on his team. That way, you both win together, instead of one losing an argument.