Draws stolen of China Doll

John RB wrote:

Or you could just do as Honnold says: "Clip the bolts if you want to.  If you want trad, then skip the bolts and place gear.  Or if you really want to be even bolder, just solo the route."

That is fair. 

Try Cam wrote: Sounds like a stalemate here. Or should I say ... a draw?

Free Chollo wrote:

Verdad hermano.

And I don't care what you or anyone else believe but what I do know is your actions with hanging draws and leaving them up is nothing less than just selfish.

Justin Winger wrote:

And I don't care what you or anyone else believe but what I do know is your actions with hanging draws and leaving them up is nothing less than just selfish.

I've never been up to this specific route but one could argue if the majority of people prefer not to hang draws on this route it's actually generous to leave them for others to use and it is you who in fact are being selfish wanting them out of your way.

The OP states that the gear was 'fixed', but it clearly wasn't.  'fixed' implies that community consensus is for perma-draws, either truly fixed or regular quickdraws agreed to be left alone.

My first response to the OP was not implying a justification for an excuse to steal draws, but a request for clarification of terms.

It is ballsy to leave draws anywhere in Boulder Canyon, esp on this particular route, which has been done on gear by a woman possibly twice the age of the OP's friend.

There plenty to places to leave draws on sport route overnight, for the week, even for the season, but this placement was done outside of local norms.

Mike wrote:

I've never been up to this specific route but one could argue if the majority of people prefer not to hang draws on this route it's actually generous to leave them for others to use and it is you who in fact are being selfish wanting them out of your way.

No this particular route you can rap in since you drop in from the top anyways and hang the dam draws so no. Them stealing my chance for an onsite or redpoint attempt is the selfish act.

Justin Winger wrote:

No this particular route you can rap in since you drop in from the top anyways and hang the dam draws so no. Them stealing my chance for an onsite or redpoint attempt is the selfish act.

There are literally 0 people (excluding whackos on MP) who would say that clipping fixed draws invalidates a redpoint or an onsight.

Get outside the front range sometime.

Justin Winger wrote:

No this particular route you can rap in since you drop in from the top anyways and hang the dam draws so no. Them stealing my chance for an onsite or redpoint attempt is the selfish act.

So now you are not just working 5.14, but onsighting 5.14. Bad ass!

the schmuck wrote:

So now you are not just working 5.14, but onsighting 5.14. Bad ass!

It doesnt matter if I am or someone else is. The fact that they have no right since they dont own dream canyon is the point. Even the pro's out here remove their draws when they are done for the day. But hey cause he climbs 14's hes special in your opinion I guess.

Justin Winger wrote:

 Even the pro's out here remove their draws when they are done for the day. 

 Yea... because there are draw thieves here. That kind of shit doesn't happen in normal places.

Well no, not special. .14 climbers are a dime a dozen these days. I was referring to you earlier stating that this is your project, and then claiming that the draws would have ruined YOUR potential onsight. It makes one wonder about the accuracy of your claim.

To be clear, I am agnostic about project draws. But, one stool should not take them. 

Phil Lauffen wrote:

 Yea... because there are draw thieves here. That kind of shit doesn't happen in normal places.

Yay, now we've got a thread combining the age old bickering about draw thieving and trashing Colorado's Front Range.  Not that it matters, but I haven't noticed a correlation of those things before.

On another note, who is still bothered that the subject of the thread is misspelled? I'm also curious if the proposed projector removes permadraws at Rifle.  That would be a badass onsight requiring some skillful wrenching technique.

Back around 1982 I was climbing at Suicide & got a stopper stuck but good & my second could not get it out. We topped out & I walk back down to my truck to get a hammer and screwdriver to retrieve my gear. On the walk back up to the climb I saw an old climber that I knew walking down swinging my stopper, I told him what had happened & that I was on my way to retrieve it. He said " You leave gear on a route you lose it. It's not yours anymore". The next day he gave it back to me saying at least you were headed back for it.

Mark Frumkin wrote: He said " You leave gear on a route you lose it. It's not yours anymore". 

I wonder what happens when your car breaks down and you go the nearest town for help... it's not yours anymore at that point?

On a handful of occasions in the past I've climbed routes that were hard and/or scary, where, for whatever reason, there's been a rope hanging over the climb or nearby - perhaps it was a rope I'd used to approach or project the climb, or a photographer's rope, or simply a top rope on a neighboring climb. I can say from personal experience that the presence of such a rope can drastically change the experience - the reason being that it provides a perceived "safety net" - an easy potential escape from the danger of the climb. This phenomenon is one reason why the old "if you don't like the bolts then don't clip them" argument has always seemed invalid to me: having the option for escape or safety one clip away puts you in a very different state of mind on a tough climb.

For this reason, I think there's a compelling argument (above and beyond all the other usual ones) for not leaving draws hanging on this particular route. China Doll has for years now been a bold and difficult trad testpiece. I think the bolts should have been removed a long time ago; as long as they're still there I don't think there's anything wrong with climbing it as a sport climb or using them to facilitate the process of projecting it as a trad climb if that's what you want to do... but having the bolts there, and especially having the draws hanging, will undeniably alter (diminish) the experience for anyone who is trying to climb it as a trad route.

This is an interesting thread drift by Josh. At what point do we start chopping sport routes that have been done on gear?  Ever, always, or sometimes? Pretty much anything can be led on gear if it is either ruthlessly wired or well below the climber's limit. 

Has anybody who has led China Doll as a trad climb done so without first sussing out the moves on bolts or TR? I'm honestly curious.

the schmuck wrote: This is an interesting thread drift by Josh. At what point do we start chopping sport routes that have been done on gear?  Ever, always, or sometimes? Pretty much anything can be led on gear if it is either ruthlessly wired or well below the climber's limit. 

Should the Dawn Wall be chopped?

More generally, can we free the aid routes on El Cap (which means adding bolts) or do they all need to stay aid routes on scary hooks and heads?

Was Honnold's Free Rider legit even though he had fixed lines and an instant-rescue all around him?

I have soloed routes that have bolts and I agree that it somewhat changes the level of commitment when you know you could step on a bolt (or god forbid, thread a finger through a hanger), but I don't feel that strongly about it.

I feel like Honnold has more standing than I do to talk about commitment and ethics. He thinks headpointing is stupid and that the argument that "the mere presence of bolts changes my headspace" is invalid.