Should we abandon self-reliance in the mountains?

Jon Hillis wrote: I take nothing into the mountains that I might signal with incase of a moment of weakness and I wear camo that way its 100% me rescuing myself so I can spray on MP about how tough I am compared to "millennials"

The only spraying you will see me doing is Pepper Spraying your rabid Damned Crag Dogs

Paul Hutton wrote:

I bet flying is a labor of love type o' thing. I just got my skydive license, and now my eyes and ears are on the pilots :)

Hey Paul:  I got my D in 1988 (I was a rigger too), but have never had the inclination to actually fly the plane. I detest flying, which is why I made a good skydiver...always happy to leave the plane!

But I kind of agree that not taking care of your own shit is weak sauce...the USMC still has shame attached to the retreat and abandonment of gear at the Chosin Reservoir in 1950.

Marc801 C wrote:

What about real PLBs, not Spot, InReach, etc.?

A 406 MHz PLB can suffer the same issues as a SEND device.

Harumpfster Boondoggle wrote:

Bullshit. Those pilots love that shit and think they have the greatest job on Earth.

Doesn’t mean the owner of the helo loves the risk.

Jim Turner wrote:

Doesn’t mean the owner of the helo loves the risk.

We usually own the Helos. If you don't think they should be used for that, then wtf do we have them for?

oh dear....

You aint one of them guys that thinks that "we" means you or us?  "We" do not control government or run the services that employ helicopters.  Causin Cousin, thats not how government operates.  
You might as well claim you "own" your real property because you have some title.    
You wanna voice at City Hall, you go shout it outside.  
You want freedom of the Press you gotta buy a Press.  (so says the Supreme Court).
You wanna full time rescue chopper fly alla time 24/7, do risky sjit -- you buy it.  
And you will STILL not be allowed to fly as you want, when you want.

The insurance company and the Bank usually actually own everything big anyway... you see where those flyguys fly those million dollar machines if they are uninsured or the banker pulls funding for future aquisitions 'causin you seem irresponsible or have too much Buck Fever, Cowboys.

The civilian machines fly to Rule or sit motionless.   And Cowboys lose their licenses.

As always, the military does as it pleases.  They are fun and often help, but dont have to... you cant run a business outta that kinda service...

Europe has different rules at a very basic level we will never aquire for various reasons.

(((PPS>>> I better NOT see you spraying my crag dog.  That will take alla your fun away...)))

Rokjox Teleski wrote: oh dear....

You aint one of them guys that thinks that "we" means you or us?  "We" do not control government or run the services that employ helicopters.  Causin Cousin, thats not how government operates.  
You might as well claim you "own" your real property because you have some title.    
You wanna voice at City Hall, you go shout it outside.  
You want freedom of the Press you gotta buy a Press.  (so says the Supreme Court).
You wanna full time rescue chopper fly alla time 24/7, do risky sjit -- you buy it.  
And you will STILL not be allowed to fly as you want, when you want.

The insurance company and the Bank usually actually own everything big anyway... you see where those flyguys fly those million dollar machines if they are uninsured or the banker pulls funding for future aquisitions 'causin you seem irresponsible or have too much Buck Fever, Cowboys.

The civilian machines fly to Rule or sit motionless.   And Cowboys lose their licenses.

As always, the military does as it pleases.  They are fun and often help, but dont have to... you cant run a business outta that kinda service...

Europe has different rules at a very basic level we will never aquire for various reasons.

**snore**.

Rokjox Teleski wrote: oh dear....

You aint one of them guys that thinks that "we" means you or us?  "We" do not control government or run the services that employ helicopters.  Causin Cousin, thats not how government operates.  
You might as well claim you "own" your real property because you have some title.    
You wanna voice at City Hall, you go shout it outside.  
You want freedom of the Press you gotta buy a Press.  (so says the Supreme Court).
You wanna full time rescue chopper fly alla time 24/7, do risky sjit -- you buy it.  
And you will STILL not be allowed to fly as you want, when you want.

The insurance company and the Bank usually actually own everything big anyway... you see where those flyguys fly those million dollar machines if they are uninsured or the banker pulls funding for future aquisitions 'causin you seem irresponsible or have too much Buck Fever, Cowboys.

The civilian machines fly to Rule or sit motionless.   And Cowboys lose their licenses.

As always, the military does as it pleases.  They are fun and often help, but dont have to... you cant run a business outta that kinda service...

Europe has different rules at a very basic level we will never aquire for various reasons.

(((PPS>>> I better NOT see you spraying my crag dog.  That will take alla your fun away...)))

I need a rescue after this....

If you're gonna get in the ring, you need to be able to box!

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qT-HHh46DbA

FosterK wrote:

A 406 MHz PLB can suffer the same issues as a SEND device.

True - they all need to see the GPS satellites. I'm wondering how many documented cases there are of the "unreliable" assertion up-thread; not  being unable to see the GPS sats, but not getting the SOS signal out, incorrect location (again, not off by 1000 meters, but an entirely different drainage/other side of a ridge, etc.).

"You're from Boise ID? Have you met Old Lady H? "

I have not. And its my loss.

 I once made a very fresh offer,
 but was properly rebuked for my effort.  
I made her an offer she was entitled to decline.

 I am likely bad for her health,
 as I often pursue unclean activities.
But the offer stands if she is so re-inclined.

I can still be a good time once.  

((Damn, I though I was gonna get some kinda Hiaku or at least a limerick...))

Marc801 C wrote:

True - they all need to see the GPS satellites. I'm wondering how many documented cases there are of the "unreliable" assertion up-thread; not  being unable to see the GPS sats, but not getting the SOS signal out, incorrect location (again, not off by 1000 meters, but an entirely different drainage/other side of a ridge, etc.).

There was a recent event this last winter on Mt Baker where two separate Spot devices failed to get a call out for help.  One had accidentally let his subscription expire, that's not that alarming.  The other just didn't work and the first response from Spot was a snide dismissal.  This blew up on social media and a responsible adult from Spot got in touch with the person who was injured and was not able to call for help.  This was on a clear day with clear line of site in the lower 48 where satellite coverage should be good.  I can try to dig up a link but I'm not sure if it's anywhere but Facebook.

IIRC it was a compound fracture, tib/fib after a snowmobile rolled across the rider a dozen miles from the trailhead.

Marc801 C wrote:

True - they all need to see the GPS satellites. I'm wondering how many documented cases there are of the "unreliable" assertion up-thread; not  being unable to see the GPS sats, but not getting the SOS signal out, incorrect location (again, not off by 1000 meters, but an entirely different drainage/other side of a ridge, etc.).

I don't think you're going to find a rigorous statistical analysis, but multipath errors are well documented in SAR cases, as well as a general navigation issue - you just have to spend some time digging up the case documents. For example, here is a case documented with Coquitlam SAR, where a PLB device did not get a fix for 24 hours: http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2011/08/personal-locator-beacons-from-the-rescuer%E2%80%99s-perspective/

SEND accidental activation:
http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2017/09/accidental-triggering-device/

Follow-up discussion on SPOT errors and malfunctions:
http://blog.oplopanax.ca/2016/01/malfunctioning-satellite-messengers/

Worry about being more self reliant at the trail head or you'll be staring at $50K in bills and your insurance company will claim "out of network" providers and not covered.