Be careful in pushing your limits

"There is zero room for error."

This is not true.  Many things are done due to theoretical/possible scenarios that don't even transpire.  Many times (in multi-pitch especially), the rope is not even weighted, think about it.   You could have your follower on belay incorrectly, the whole pitch, and she still gets to the anchor just fine.  Another example, you're leading a pitch and get to the anchors and realize your knot was not tied correctly.   Whoops that would have killed me, but I never fell.  Thank God.   Plenty of mistakes are made, where no one gets hurt.  

Russ Keane wrote: "There is zero room for error."

This is not true.  Many things are done due to theoretical/possible scenarios that don't even transpire.  Many times (in multi-pitch especially), the rope is not even weighted, think about it.   You could have your follower on belay incorrectly, the whole pitch, and she still gets to the anchor just fine.  Another example, you're leading a pitch and get to the anchors and realize your knot was not tied correctly.   Whoops that would have killed me, but I never fell.  Thank God.   Plenty of mistakes are made, where no one gets hurt.  

Is this parsing of semantic minutia really adding anything to the discussion? Yes, on a lot of climbs the gear never actually gets used - that's not what was meant by "zero room for error" and you know it.

Marc801 C wrote:

Is this parsing of semantic minutia really adding anything to the discussion? Yes, on a lot of climbs the gear never actually gets used - that's not what was meant by "zero room for error" and you know it.

It's not semantic minutia. There is a threshold of circumstances that causes an error to be an accident. But it's impossible to know exactly where that threshold is in any situation.

We have all made mistakes, but not everyone has had an accident.

Many of the "mistakes are unacceptable!" folks that are berating Mel do not seem to understand that distinction. I've known a few climbers that routinely make mistakes and deny it to themselves, or even just laugh it off. And they have never had an accident. I'm quite certain that in their minds they don't make "real" mistakes because they have been in the "room for error" zone without consequences.

I would much rather climb with someone that acknowledges their mistakes and learns from them than someone who believes that "zero room for error" is proof that they've never made an error themselves.

Sloppy Second wrote:

John Long did not properly tie in at climbing gym. He made the most fundamental mistake in the least demanding environment.  Lynn Hill did basically the same.

The OP made a mistake, caught it and corrected it before there were any consequences. John Long never corrected his mistake. His fall could have killed his belayer or anyone else below. In a climbing gym.

You told the OP she should "stick to supervised sport climbing or bouldering" because she made a mistake setting up a multi-pitch belay. So why should someone who has demonstrated that they can't handle a simple tie-in climb anything at all?

John is on supertopo, go ahead and send him the same message you sent to Mel. Safety standards need to be applied consistently.

You are missing the point, perhaps reading comprehension, skimming, haste to be contrarian or I have not articulated my points well enough. 

JL's accident was clearly not a case of 'pushing your limits' as the title and subject of the OPs original message. It was exactly the opposite scenario, and I acknowledge that accidents happen, even with the 'best' climbers. The OP's message is one of their limits of mental fatigue as it relates to safety, and a long day of climbing. Not a random lapse in judgement like JL’s. If you are prone to the former, than that is a big problem in climbing. Everyone is prone to the latter. The OP states that she is stressed and this results in her lapses. She states "I will work harder to be diligent even when I'm tired, and step down at the first sign that I'm growing more complacent than my usual acceptable risk level." This is a serious problem IMHO. If being tired pushes you to be more complacent, and you use that as a signal to call it quits for the day, that is not good at all! That would be akin to having a propensity to fall asleep at the wheel, with the solution being that you will keep up this habit, but stop driving when you start nodding off! Clearly there is a problem with this train of thought? YGD and kill someone else along the way. And then using caffeine as a tool to mitigate climbing safety? Come on. If this is your innate reaction to being tired, I think that that would be difficult to fix or train and climbing would be a lot more dangerous for this type of person.

 This is MUCH different than random errors that we all have make and will in the future. If the OP simply stated they were out climbing and they made these 2 errors, that is fine and would need to be corrected, but this is quite different to point to mental fatigue as a problem and saying that she tends to become complacent. Maybe I am wrong here, but when I am stressed, exhausted, dehydrated, scared, whatever,... I don't become complacent (climbing) in fact I would say I become safer and double check everything. I am surely more complacent in John Long's situation where I'm super relaxed and having a grand ole time. BTW, asking me to call out John or anyone else is juvenile (but I don't know how old you are, so maybe it is fine).

Still not sure I did a good job of articulating my point – that if you have difficulty with mental endurance with the outcome being complacency regarding safety – that is big problem that I’m not sure training is an effective solution… Sorry OP, still not trying to be a jerk, I just think this isn't the norm and you might want to put a lot of effort into figuring this out and not just having more shorter days - obviously you are very concerned as you opened up this discussion on MP. I wish you well.

Joe

Parsing of semantics?   If someone says zero room for error, they are saying you have to be 100% mistake-free.   Even granting a downgrade to 98% or 95%, I still disagree.   I do not consider rock climbing to be a "life-or-death" activity.  It wouldn't be any fun; you'd be gripped and scared the whole time.  Obviously the environment can be unforgiving, but if you can find the room to relax and take everything into proper context (maybe even find some oneness/flow) you'll make better decisions and ultimately be safer as a result.  

Joe Prescott wrote: Still not sure I did a good job of articulating my point – that if you have difficulty with mental endurance with the outcome being complacency regarding safety – that is big problem that I’m not sure training is an effective solution… Sorry OP, still not trying to be a jerk, I just think this isn't the norm and you might want to put a lot of effort into figuring this out and not just having more shorter days - obviously you are very concerned as you opened up this discussion on MP. I wish you well.

I believe I understand your point, and I agree with you for the most part that it is a bad thing if mental fatigue leads to complacency regarding safety.  However, I think you are concentrating too much on the OPs statement linking the fatigue to complacency. Your advice, which is good advice, seems to somewhat discount the fact that mental fatigue can and does lead to poorer decision making skills. This is what I understood the point OP was making to be; not that she necessarily becomes more complacent, but that was the word she used to describe the natural and real effects of mental fatigue (again, that's what I understood the point to be, don't want to put words in her mouth). Good decision making becomes harder for everyone when they are tired, it's how our bodies work. Discounting or downplaying that fact would be dangerous. Sleep deprivation and mental fatigue have a similar effect on the brain as alcohol. Do you think you'd be safer climbing drunk? This isn't something innate in OP that means she can't ever lead climbs. 

Your advice that we must become more, not less, focused on safety as we grow tired needs to be coupled with the others in this thread saying that one needs plenty of experience in using these systems in order to safely climb in the drunk-like mental state that we find ourselves in when tired.

Ok, maybe I was taking things too literal, but her last sentence scares me:

"I will work harder to be diligent even when I'm tired, and step down at the first sign that I'm growing more complacent than my usual acceptable risk level. I was lucky that the situations we found ourselves in were very forgiving. Complacency kills!"

I get more complacent during some activities when I grow tired mentally, when there is little risk of bodily harm. Using complacency, as it relates to safety, as a guage to know when to call it a day is scary. Maybe more experience will help.

Joe Prescott wrote:

Sorry OP, still not trying to be a jerk, I just think this isn't the norm and you might want to put a lot of effort into figuring this out and not just having more shorter days - obviously you are very concerned as you opened up this discussion on MP. I wish you well.

Joe

I agree with you. My post wasn't meant to be a heavy-hitting analysis of the occurrence and my status as a climber. It was just meant to be...a forum post.

The other stuff isn't for public eye. I think other new climbers can benefit from being wary of fatigue, and how they might not have shit as dialed as they thought they did. That's why I shared the post.

Sorry, I'm an experimental scientist and technical writing/reading is a large part of my life, so I tend to overanalyze text sometimes. Hopefully you don't feel like your post backfired and I understand you shared as a warning to others. I'm just a random guy that expressed my opinion. Hopefully training and solidifying routines goes a long way in increasing your safety when fatigued (and not fatigued). It's hard to remember my mindset in me first few years of climbing, but I'm a pretty cautious yet relaxed person when rock climbing (probably why I don't climb the grades I'd like to). I'm very afraid of mistakes due to complacency in general. My biggest fear for myself is the complacency that another poster mentioned (John Long, Lynn Hill, etc) where it just seems random that you forget to finish your knot, or something similar. My rappelling routine is so ingrained that it feels VERY strange if I don't do my normal little lower test while still tethered or at least holding onto the anchor before I fully commit. That wasn't automatic I guess until practiced for a few years. Hopefully you will develop similar routines that free up mental capacity to concentrate better when tired... Maybe dial it back l as you suggest and work on developing a broad base of routine skills (and troubleshooting when things go wrong).

A non-sarcastic - good luck to you,
joe