Another "next shoe please" request for a beginner moving into intermediate

Morning all! Been reading around here on old threads for shoe recs and thought I'd reach out with my own query.

Backstory is I started climbing 3 years ago, 6 months with shitty gym shoes and then bought TC Pros because they seemed like a good 'all-rounder' from what I read around the web. My skill is such that I now boulder mostly v4s (v5 possible, v6 above my pay grade) and 5.11a-b is where I'm at. I've done a few outdoors climbs in the Shawgunks outside NYC but mostly in the gym.

I'm at the point now where the TC Pros are showing lots of wear in the toes (i'll get them resoled) and I want something a bit more aggressive and realize it'll open up my skill for tougher climbs. The kicker: for me, the TC Pros in 40.5 are *extremely* comfortable. Like, I put them on and take them off 2.5 hours later in the gym and have zero foot pain the whole time - they're very snug and I feel pressure, but no pain.  I really want a more aggressive shoe but I am very wary of all the climbing tales I've heard of how people are so excited to take off their shoes whenever they can!

About my foot: size 8 US, like I said TC Pros in 40.5. I like shoes with wide toebox (Altras, birks in sandals, etc) and would love to emulate that if possible. Shoes I've been looking at are Otakis, Swkama.  Heard Butoras (acro wide fit) may be good but have not tried.  Would welcome any and all thoughts, recommendations, advice ("shut up about pain" lol) and so on. Many bonus points if said shoes are available at REI so I can use my dividend.

Thanks!

Hi Boris:  Sounds like we may have a similar foot shape / size.  I too like a wide toebox because my foot is very wide up top, but slightly more slender on the bottom.  I also have hammer toes, so when I exert pressure, I need a bit more room up top for my knuckles to pop up.  I wear a size 42.5 in TC pros and have them sized for snug, but comfy all day trad climbing...so much so where I dont even really have to take them off between pitches (on a multipitch).  In the gym and for sport climbing / bouldering, I have really enjoyed the la sportiva otakis and genius'.   For what it's worth, I wear 42.5 in the otaki and 43 in the genius' (genius and skwama run a bit small and are notoriously hard to size exactly right - I went through a lot of trial and error).  With that said, for being such aggressive shoes, they are super comfy, yet precise / snug.  I have tried solutions before but I think since the toebox narrows in the front, it ends up cramping my toes.  Boulder folks swear by the solutions, but I climb less efficiently when my toes are cramped or curled, so they just don't work well for me.    

Most online retailers will let you swap a size for free (climbstuff, backcountry, etc..) and on most you can find 15-25% off.  

Happy to discuss further, LMK.

FYI, I am not a strong believer that climbing shoes need to be painful nor does having curled toes help you send harder.  In my mind, for sending at your limit, you need your total body and mind focused on the task at hand.  If I have pain anywhere on my body (including cramped toes), I am by definition not 100% focused.    I personally think all that stuff about downsizing is a myth and that it's a fine line to find something snug enough, yet comfy.

Oh and I am very biased towards la sportiva, just because they seem to fit my foot the best.  Evolv's are notoriously made for wider feet, so if you feet are really wide you might want to try oracles or the shaman's

Check out Katanas. Slight more aggressive that TCs, but not nearly as asymmetrical as Genius/Futura/Solution.

When you are “standing around” the comfort of the shoe is a lot about the shape of the last on which the shoe was built. TC pros are built on a flat last, hence, even when sized snug, they are reasonably comfortable to stand in.
I size my shoes snug but not super tight. With my Katanas and Katakis, they are just right when doing what they are meant to do - climb- and uncomfortable if I stand around in them. Built on a different last. All (?) bouldering and OH sport shoes are built on a different last than trad/general shoes. Just get a velcro shoe built to do what you want to climb and slip them on and off. 

Thanks all for your quick response.

@The Clymbing Atlas I'm totally with you on all your responses and while @phylp I understand these aren't meant to be every day shoes to hang out in, I don't want to be in constant toe pain.. I am a big cyclist as well and my feet's well being are important to me, more important than getting that one extra hold if that makes sense.

I don't have "officially" (eg Brannock device) wide feet, I just believe the wide forefoot/toebox movement is right in how it proscribes walking, how our foot was built, and since I've gotten older and switched most my shoes to wider footbox, many types of pain have gone.

I wear 40.5 TC Pros as well. In this size they are comfortable all day shoes for me. The skwamas in size 39.5, at this size they don't hurt my feet but when I'm done climbing, they're coming off my feet. Also I tried the otakis and found them to be a much narrower fit than the skwamas. Had butora acros wide fit before and I sized them to street, pretty comfortable shoes but not as wide of a toe box as the skwama, and i stopped climbing in them after I got a pair of skwama's. 

Check out the Scarpa Instinct VS. Or, for a less boulder oriented shoe, the Anasazi Pro.

Once you decide on what shoe to buy, this may be helpful to find the right size:

Size Squirrel

Tenaya makes great shoes that are aggressive yet comfortable. I have the Iati and love it. The Mundaki is similar but a little more bouldering oriented. I really like them both from a performance and comfort perspective.

FWIW, I also have a wide-ish foot (I wear Scarpa mountaineering boots almost exclusively).

Miguel D wrote: Once you decide on what shoe to buy, this may be helpful to find the right size:

Size Squirrel

Go to a store, try on all of the aggressive shoes that they have, pick the one that fits the best. Fit is more important than other differences between brands, in my experience.

Ask how much the shoes are likely to stretch, and size accordingly so that they are snug, but not painful once the shoes reach their final size.

Julian H wrote: Take your shoes off after each climb and, don’t worry about finding the perfect shoe.

Or just buy comfortable shoes and not have to take them off constantly.

Size 6 Moccs or size 7 Anasazi VCS. But tbh, it doesn't really matter what shoe you have, it's what you do with it. I'd go for something medium stiffness so you can pull with your toes on overhangs, but not die if you fancy a day out on agro slab climbs.

The wide acros are amazing. I have fat feet and they stretched to fit perfectly. It did seem to take a while for them to break in though, but once they were they fit like a glove! My go to shoe now!

Scarpa instinct vs are great and a little wider. Comfy but not painful. I have a wider foot and the solutions don't fit my foot at all, but YMMV. 

HI all,

Thanks for these great responses. As I am a new member I couldn't reply thruout the day, it kept bonking me (there is a seriously terrible antispam measure that prevented me for almost 24 hours from posting). I will try the Otakis, it seems like people recommend them, and sizesquirrel is a cool tool!

Out of curiousity, why aren't the TC Pros considered good for the gym?

Thanks!

Boris Tucano wrote: HI all,

Thanks for these great responses. As I am a new member I couldn't reply thruout the day, it kept bonking me (there is a seriously terrible antispam measure that prevented me for almost 24 hours from posting). I will try the Otakis, it seems like people recommend them, and sizesquirrel is a cool tool!

Out of curiousity, why aren't the TC Pros considered good for the gym?

Thanks!

They are flat lasted for all day comfort. Gym climbing tends to be steep and hard, which a moderate to aggressively downturned shoe will help with. They have high top ankles, which provide great protection in wide cracks, but limits your ankle mobility for gymnastic climbing. They don't have rubber on top of the toes, which would help with toe hooking. They are EXPENSIVE. You can find significantly cheaper shoes which will perform better for gym climbing. Also, they are lace-up shoes. Slippers, or velcro shoes allow you to quickly put on, or take off your shoes when you have to use the restroom, fill your water bottle, chat with your friend by the hangboards, etc.

Those are the points that come to mind. I'm sure someone else will chime in with something else. 

Interesting all around. Thanks - that makes sense. And agree that they are comfy as hell!

I think as an entry level person I was looking for comfort and my general consumption style tends toward multi-use not specialized, so I was thinking those were good "for everything". I'm now decently good at intermediate stuff, I realize I need something more aggressive that will, uh, take me to new heights!

I love my shamans. They are expensive and aggressive, but they fit like they were made from a mold of my foot, so i wear them for everything except some slab. Fit is the most important - dont worry about the "ability" of the shoe or if it can "do everything" - focus on fit. Freesoloist climbs 5.12 solo in blown out mythos....