Mule Knot - escaping the belay

Has any of the good people of MP ever actually used the mule knot to escape the belay for an injured partner?  How'd it go?

I've been practicing self-rescue stuff the last few nights and the amount of stuff I have forgotten since my last class is almost total. I couldn't even remember how to pass a knot!!!

Please tell of your experience and how you prepared for being in the mountains and dealing with an accident.

I'm thinking of dropping $200 for a refresher class with an AMGA certified guide...just wonder what you'alls take on it was.

UPDATE:  I'm in Minnesota, the options for classes is NIL. Have to just schedule time as a guided adventure, and tell him what I want.

Buck Rio wrote: Please tell of your experience and how you prepared for being in the mountains and dealing with an accident.

A bag full of heavy rocks will make you a quick learner.

Everett wrote:

A bag full of heavy rocks will make you a quick learner.

Well, I've been using a bag of rock salt suspended off the ceiling in my basement, game is don't let it touch the floor.

Buck Rio wrote:Please tell of your experience and how you prepared for being in the mountains and dealing with an accident.

A very general answer (more than just the mule knot) ...

My partners and I have a living list of self-rescue-ish challenges from which we pick a few to do each “off season.”

For example: A while back R Goldstone challenged MP folks with how one would rescue someone stuck on rap - e.g., knocked unconscious with rap backup engaged. So we added it to our list which now numbers over 20 exercises.

We’ve been doing this for about six years and certainly do not do all on the list each year ... just what someone is interested in exploring. And there is a lot of overlap anyways (e.g., many reasons to use a mule knot).

Things we keep in mind at these sessions: Rescuer should not risk becoming a victim; use best practices during a session; and if you end up in a self-rescue situation for which you practiced some time in the past, you could still decide you’re not up to executing.

Buck Rio wrote: Has any of the good people of MP ever actually used the mule knot to escape the belay for an injured partner?  How'd it go?

works perfectly. in my experience, the trickiest parts of mastering the mule knot belay tie off are:

1. tying the mule knot on the load line appropriately so your injured climber doesn't descend (knot needs to be immediately above your belay device with the overhand right behind it)
2. after breaking the overhand above your mule knot, your hand needs to immediately manage the brake strand...and when you "pop" the mule, do it fast and hard so your climber doesnt descend

Would you mind sharing the list, Bill? A rigorous self-rescue re-upping (outside of the armchair) has been on my list of todos.

Buck Rio wrote: Has any of the good people of MP ever actually used the mule knot to escape the belay for an injured partner?  How'd it go?

Specific to the mule knot, it can help if you can incorporate it into your everyday climbing practice.

I mean, if you do multi-pitch, you probably have opportunities on belay where you tie a backup or “ catastrophe” knot to go hands free. Instead, most times just tie a mule with backup overhand.

Typically, those opportunities are not with the rope loaded. But it certainly ingraines the mechanics of tying and releasing the thing.

Everett wrote: Would you mind sharing the list, Bill? A rigorous self-rescue re-upping (outside of the armchair) has been on my list of todos.

Hmmm. I guess it is not up to 20. And not all about self-rescue exercises. But here is our “off-season” list; we have notes associated with each - could give more detail if the title is unclear:

A) Skills - The Heart: Belays

B) Skills - Rappels

C) Skills - Passing Knots on Rappel

D) Skills - Anchor Day

E) Skills - Werner Münter Day (climbing)

F) Skills - Dry Run for Self Rescue+

G) Skills - Aiding with a Free-Climb Rack

H) Skills - Human Rap Reflexes

I) Skills - Self Rescue+

J) Skills - Route Finding

K) Skills - Falls on Lead

L) Skills - Lead-Head Scramble-Loop (climbing)

M) Skills - 3D Protection of a Pitch

N) Skills - Single Pitch Trad, aim to lead

O) Skills - Multiple Pitch Trad, aim to lead (description page later?)

P) Skills - ATC Guide Mode Day

Q) Skills - Rescue One Stuck on Rappel

Bill Lawry wrote: Specific to the mule knot, it can help if you can incorporate it into your everyday climbing practice.

I mean, if you do multi-pitch, you probably have opportunities on belay where you tie a backup or “ catastrophe” knot to go hands free. Instead, most times just tie a mule with backup overhand.

Typically, those opportunities are not with the rope loaded. But it certainly ingraines the mechanics of tying and releasing the thing.

When I first learned it, I would use it to tie off my hang-dogging gym partner every time he weighted the rope, whether a lead fall or a top-rope hang.  Within a few days I could tie it very quickly without having to think about it or look at it.  There's a lot more to learn for rescue situations of course, but it's nice to have that step feel automatic.  

Yes, I've used a mule knot to hold a live load many times; mostly during teaching scenarios, but once in a for real situation. It works great. One thing to watch out for that a lot of newer students sometimes miss is to ensure the loaded strand is capturing the unloaded strand against the spine of the biner (do so with a half twist). While not strictly required for the knot to fucncion, it adds a bit of assurance and margin.

Highly recommend taking a class if you've forgotten most/all of it, or going out with a few buds who know what to do for a half day and practicing. Don't need much to practice, a bag full of rocks or sand on a line over a sturdy branch or beam would work just fine if you don't want to drive to and occupy a cliff.

If you spend any discernable amount of time climbing outdoors, it's definitely worth running over once/twice a season in a live scenario anyhow even if you're fairly fresh.

Aaron Nash wrote: Yes, I've used a mule knot to hold a live load many times. It works great. One thing to watch out for that a lot of newer students sometimes miss is to ensure the loaded strand is capturing the unloaded strand against the spine of the biner (do so with a half twist). While not strictly required for the knot to fucncion, it adds a bit of assurance and margin.

Highly recommend taking a class if you've forgotten most/all of it, or going out with a few buds who know what to do for a half day and practicing. Don't need much to practice, a bag full of rocks or sand on a line over a sturdy branch or beam would work just fine if you don't want to drive to and occupy a cliff.

If you spend any discernable amount of time climbing outdoors, it's definitely worth running over once/twice a season in a live scenario anyhow even if you're fairly fresh.

Totally agree with everything you said. Most of my time has been on less committing routes. But even so, a rescue from Lumpy ridge is serious, even though its only 2 miles from Estes. Or Eldo, hell there is a road less than 1/2 mile from any climb, but a rescue is still a BFD, needing technical rope work.

Never to rescue any injured climber but several times to rescue kids who were too scared to come down and refused to be lowered. If you've got the cash to drop on a guide then that'll probably be great but another good option is to get this book and read it and go out and practice it on your own. Better yet, go out and practice with some friends who a little bit more fresh on self-rescue.

I used to get out and practice self-rescue once a month during the climbing season, but then school got a little bit too busy. A couple times a season is a bit more reasonable, and that's how often you should aim to practice. Make sure to practice a variety of things like ascending ropes, counterbalance rappel, tandem rapping with a victim, etc. 

eli poss wrote: Never to rescue any injured climber but several times to rescue kids who were too scared to come down and refused to be lowered.

Yep +1

eli poss wrote: Never to rescue any injured climber but several times to rescue kids who were too scared to come down and refused to be lowered. If you've got the cash to drop on a guide then that'll probably be great but another good option is to get this book and read it and go out and practice it on your own. Better yet, go out and practice with some friends who a little bit more fresh on self-rescue.

I used to get out and practice self-rescue once a month during the climbing season, but then school got a little bit too busy. A couple times a season is a bit more reasonable, and that's how often you should aim to practice. Make sure to practice a variety of things like ascending ropes, counterbalance rappel, tandem rapping with a victim, etc. 

The reason I want to get up to date is that I will (hopefully) be introducing my nephew to some trad climbing this summer. He is a super strong sport climber (.13a), but he  has zero experience in the wild.  I would love to take him to the Splatte, maybe Turkey Rocks for an intro to trad, and then wander over to Shelf Road and let him school me on the clip and go's. I would not feel comfortable being responsible for him if I didn't at least know the basics of self rescue. He is not a kid, he is 20 years old, but is terribly naïve when is comes to mortality and things that can kill you.  

Buck Rio wrote:
UPDATE:  I'm in Minnesota, the options for classes is NIL. Have to just schedule time as a guided adventure, and tell him what I want.

What? REI in Bloomington runs a rescue class.  Heck there are 2 coming up in the next couple months:

https://www.rei.com/events/61/rock-climbing-rescue-class?course.session.anyLocation=100.000000~44.860100~-93.289200;geo_r

Matthew Bertolatus wrote:

What? REI in Bloomington runs a rescue class.  Heck there are 2 coming up in the next couple months:

https://www.rei.com/events/61/rock-climbing-rescue-class?course.session.anyLocation=100.000000~44.860100~-93.289200;geo_r

Thanks Matthew, but over the years I have taken some classes with REI....I was not impressed with the quality of the instruction of anything climbing related. The bike stuff and camping stuff was first rate. The climbing stuff had too many students per instructor, and not everyone was really going at the same pace, so some people felt cheated when all of the promised topics weren't covered, because others didn't even know what a fig 8 follow thru was. 

3 hours is not enough time, although the price is right.

VE has a couple guides I trust that I can rent for a day and will tailor the instruction to my needs, and I can supplement that with practice using the David Fasul(sp?) book.

Buck Rio wrote:

The reason I want to get up to date is that I will (hopefully) be introducing my nephew to some trad climbing this summer. He is a super strong sport climber (.13a), but he  has zero experience in the wild.  I would love to take him to the Splatte, maybe Turkey Rocks for an intro to trad, and then wander over to Shelf Road and let him school me on the clip and go's. I would not feel comfortable being responsible for him if I didn't at least know the basics of self rescue. He is not a kid, he is 20 years old, but is terribly naïve when is comes to mortality and things that can kill you.  

Thank you for that, so many people don't want to bother with learning self-rescue and get themselves into terrain where they'd be SOL if shit it the fan. I'll be in the south platte this summer so maybe I'll see you out there one day.

I bet your nephew would love the tour de platte, which is a link up of helen's dome (800') acid rock (~400') and the velcro wall (~150') to the summit of sheep's rock. Depending on what routes you get on, it can be a mix of sport and trad or even all bolts if you want. Basically you climb helen's dome, hike a few mins from the summit to the base of acid rock. From the summit of acid rock, you hike another few min to the velcro wall for one more pitch to the summit. It can be done anywhere from 5.7ish to 5.11

Thanks Buck - generally agree re: REI classes, but it is something.  You want a catch at VE sometime just let me know, always looking to meet more people around here.  

eli poss wrote: 

I bet your nephew would love the tour de platte, which is a link up of helen's dome (800') acid rock (~400') and the velcro wall (~150') to the summit of sheep's rock. Depending on what routes you get on, it can be a mix of sport and trad or even all bolts if you want. Basically you climb helen's dome, hike a few mins from the summit to the base of acid rock. From the summit of acid rock, you hike another few min to the velcro wall for one more pitch to the summit. It can be done anywhere from 5.7ish to 5.11

That sounds like a nice 1000'+  day

"Have one person be the dungeon master and come up with the challenge and then work through it together. "

If your going to bring D&D into it, it must be good.

Sadly I do not have a ton of people to climb with. I am a normal looking/acting 52 year old guy... the last is what kills it for me    I do not think young people want to climb with people their dads age, at least in my experience.

Learning the knots and such is great, but it's not helpful if you don't know the best time to apply the details. I'm with Bill Lawry - a great rainy day/beer/hiking/descending exercise is to just talk through a self rescue scenario with a partner. Have one person be the dungeon master and come up with the challenge and then work through it together. 

Luckily I have never had to use the Munter for a real injured climber but I have used it many times to practice rescue with a live load.  I took the AMGA rock courses and say whatever you will about guiding their rescue training is excellent.  I also use the mule knot and self rescue skills aid climbing because a haul bag is a lot like an injured person, heavy and dead weight.  I always use the mule knot to dock a haul bag.  It is easy to tie and release under a load and the Munter mule is great because the Munter can be used to lower the bag off the anchor.