Cam holding qualities in overnight iced cracks ?

I rock climb the in the Adirondacks and New Hampshire in late fall and early spring, when the temperature often dips below freezing during the night. Sometimes cracks will be lightly  "iced up" in the morning before daytime temperatures melt the ice away . I usually climb later in the day to ensure that all the nights ice has melted because …. I worry about how well my (BD) cams will hold in the lightly iced cracks, and never got around to testing them in ADK cracks.
Will my cams hold and behave like normal when place within a lightly icy crack ?  Will they "pop out" if fallen on, Can they be trusted, ?
Any "real world" advice would be appreciated … 

Ian Dibbs wrote: I rock climb the in the Adirondacks and New Hampshire in late fall and early spring, when the temperature often dips below freezing during the night. Sometimes cracks will be lightly  "iced up" in the morning before daytime temperatures melt the ice away . I usually climb later in the day to ensure that all the nights ice has melted because …. I worry about how well my (BD) cams will hold in the lightly iced cracks, and never got around to testing them in ADK cracks.
Will my cams hold and behave like normal when place within a lightly icy crack ?  Will they "pop out" if fallen on, Can they be trusted, ?
Any "real world" advice would be appreciated … some say spring is coming !

It depends.

Lets see... Ice is slick, like Devil's Lake quartzite, but worse. Ice is also brittle and friable, like the Fisher Towers. Ever hear of cams pulling out in either of those locations?

I vaguely recall some climbing book or sales tag saying that dust and dirt between a cam lobe and rock would behave similarly to liquid under the pressure of a fall. What the heck does that mean?  Ice under a skate blade is liquified by pressure.  So can you assume ice pressurized by a cam lobe would liquify...probably a good thesis to begin with.  No real world experience to impart.

The odds are against you. It is slick and probably won't have the friction to hold. If it does hold, ice is more likely to shatter than many rock types. If it manages to hold and not shatter or pulverize the ice, the force will start to pressure melt the ice, adding water as a lubricant between the cam and a slick surface. Sounds like a bad idea to me.

Tricams tend to be better in this situation due to the fulcrum point, but still not as ideal as placing in solid rock.

This is a bad choice for cams -- high likelihood that every placement will be no better than marginal.

For iced-up cracks, Tricams are generally a far better choice -- the point will bite into the ice as it melts, rather than slipping out -- but you're still in an iffy situation, and really need to be looking for constrictions for your gear, whether nuts or Tricams.

Is this where somebody posts a video of miserable conditions climbing in Scotland?

The OP said "lightly iced up ". Maybe the cam can expand to maintain its placement if the very thin layer of ice doesn't hold, rather like the camming device said to have held when a crack widened in an earthquake. Pure speculation on my part, but perhaps many of the other replies are based on theory too? 

i shore wrote: The OP said "lightly iced up ". Maybe the cam can expand to maintain its placement if the very thin layer of ice doesn't hold, rather like the camming device said to have held when a crack widened in an earthquake. Pure speculation on my part, but perhaps many of the other replies are based on theory too? 

that might work IF it breaks through the ice. But for it to break through the ice it would first need to engage on the ice instead of just slipping out immediately when loaded, which is unlikely because you need friction for it to engage in the first place. 

I do a fair amount of trad mixed climbing and as a result I've placed gear in a variety of conditions. For cams, at a minimum hand test the placement as in theory if it will hold against a hand load, it will hold a fall. The corollary that if it rips out with a small tug it will rip out in a fall is certainly true. In general, for any type of water (liquid or frozen) in the crack, it's ideal to place the cam in a constriction of some kind. For this reason, many recommend hexes (covers the same size range as your cams), but hexes are generally less versatile and where a hex can be placed in a constriction, so, too can a cam. The exception to this is hammering in a hex. If you're mixed climbing, this is an option. If you're just rock climbing in cold and wet conditions, there's probably not a hammer in play.

If the rock is merely wet, cams will typically work fine (very slick rock types excepted, such as quartzite). In general, cams in wet granite and limestone are fine.

If the rock is snow covered, brushing away dry snow often yields an acceptable placement. Brushing away wet snow is usually more of a pain as significantly more clearing may be required, but also often makes an acceptable placement. The key is to ensure that bare rock exists at the location of the placement and any snow near the placement has become water.

If the rock is lightly iced up (just some verglas), this ice can usually be chipped away. An ice tool would be the typical method, but a nut tool can work just a well. Again, ensure you clear a patch big enough for the placement down to bare rock.

If the rock is significantly iced, it's probably not worth the effort unless it's a mandatory or crucial placement. If this much ice is present, you may also be carrying ice screws anyway.

Pitons are not uncommon in trad mixed, usually carried in the thin sizes (though probably less applicable to this specific question). For icy thin cracks, a piton sized to the crack width (not the ice width, which would be smaller) can often displace the ice in the crack and yield a decent placement.

For stoppers and other passive protection, a solid constriction is required regardless, so ice and snow are less problematic, but should still be cleaned. Stoppers can be made more inspiring by hammering them in a bit. Ice tools make it fairly simple to hammer the stopper in/out, though a rock climber could use a nut tool and hand weight of some kind (carabiner, rock, etc.) to set the placement a bit more securely.

Finally, I think counting on a tricam point to dig into ice is pretty wishful thinking. If it hasn't been made clear by this point, clean out the ice/snow first, then worry about what you're going to place. All this pro relies on friction, and the coefficient of friction for ice and anything isn't exactly inspiring.

Regardless, note that in these cases protection requires more effort to place and is inherently less secure. Plan accordingly.

According to camp, Tricams hold with ice on one side and rock on the other... Don’t know if i’d Ever want to test that... camp-usa.com/outdoor/2010/0…

Cams work via friction, ice greatly reduces that so I’d either clear the ice or try to find a nut placement 

"lightly iced up in the morning before daytime temperatures melt the ice away"

So it might be wet.  I think that's way different than icy.