2018-2019 Utah ice conditions!!!!!

If the guys involved in the avalanche in Santaquin read this, let me please encourage you to submit a near miss report to ANAC. There may be important lessons to be learned from analyzing your decision making, and your honesty in discussing your mistakes could save a life. Posting an analysis of the experience on MP—one that doesn’t try to excuse your decisions, just to document them—would also be valuable to the community. Even better if you can get an experienced third party to contribute analysis.

For everyone else, let’s encourage open dialog about decision-making errors, not shame people for their mistakes. We have an awful lot of new people entering climbing every year and a surprising number immediately pushing into the more demanding disciplines—we need them talking about their experiences, asking questions, and admitting mistakes or we’re just going to be surrounded by a growing throng of survivorship-bias-blinded crampon missile candidates. The line between “stupid” and “sponsored hero who gets movies made about his exploits” is pretty gray sometimes, and newcomers have little chance of telling the difference even when there is one. It is vital that more seasoned climbers share their experience, especially when they make mistakes. 

And now I’ll go watch gear advertisements of climbers forging on through Scottish spindrift...

Allen Sanderson wrote: Stupid climbers making the news: https://fox13now.com/2019/02/02/crews-respond-to-multiple-avalanches-up-santaquin-canyon-in-utah-county/

I don’t know if they are “stupid” comes on a little strong.   I looked at the forecast and it was all green with yellow at low elevations.

Risk was you guessed it wet slides in late afternoon.   Idk what time this happened but I’m sure most if not all of us have gone out on “yellow” days.

That being said sometimes we as ice climbers need to be even more aware and careful than skiers.   A normally low risk sluff or loose wet slide that wouldn’t phase a skier could knock a leader off with serious consequence.  Really glad everyone is ok.  

EDIT:  Well I should have read more and watched that whole video.  I stand corrected.   Stayed on route after multiple avalanches it sounds like...  if there is one obvious tell of impending avalanches it’s other avalanches.  Pretty bad series of decisions.  

First slide was on Squash Head at about 11:30. Second was at 11:32. Both left 2 to 3 feet of wet snow at the base. That was enough evidence for me, but not others as climbers kept going up.

^^^ good idea about ANAC report.   The two who kept climbing realized they made a series of poor decisions and wanted others to learn from their mistakes, hence me writing the avalanche report and posting something here in an effort to make people aware. I realize most of you know that Santaquin and Provo have slide paths above them but some don't and many people don't realize how large those bowls are, how many people were climbing in Provo under those drainages or Stairway yesterday?  Are they not stupid just because nothing slid or fell down there?   The UAC forecast for today Evelyn Lees mentioned how surprised about those slides she was, and she's seen quite a few winters.  For the record we watched Automatic Control Theory have a wet slide large enough to knock someone off of the first pitch and bury them about 10 minutes before the first Squash head slide- if any of you would have predicted that then you need to call the UAC and become a forecaster, that's not a 'slide path'.  I'll try to post a video of one of the 10 slides that came over the climb through the day (you can see a couple of them on the Utah ice climber facebook page if you're on that), the first two that Michael mentioned were not the largest of the day.  Both of the climbers on route are lucky to be alive at all and they know they made bad decisions.    

luke smith wrote: ^^^ good idea about ANAC report.   The two who kept climbing realized they made a series of poor decisions and wanted others to learn from their mistakes, hence me writing the avalanche report and posting something here in an effort to make people aware. I realize most of you know that Santaquin and Provo have slide paths above them but some don't and many people don't realize how large those bowls are, how many people were climbing in Provo under those drainages or Stairway yesterday?  Are they not stupid just because nothing slid or fell down there?   The UAC forecast for today Evelyn Lees mentioned how surprised about those slides she was, and she's seen quite a few winters.  For the record we watched Automatic Control Theory have a wet slide large enough to knock someone off of the first pitch and bury them about 10 minutes before the first Squash head slide- if any of you would have predicted that then you need to call the UAC and become a forecaster, that's not a 'slide path'.  I'll try to post a video of one of the 10 slides that came over the climb through the day (you can see a couple of them on the Utah ice climber facebook page if you're on that), the first two that Michael mentioned were not the largest of the day.  Both of the climbers on route are lucky to be alive at all and they know they made bad decisions.    

Which bowls or drainages feed the Stairway in Provo?

These guys know they made a mistake, they were lucky to not take it in the face going up or down the route.  Russian roulette situation in the middle of no mans land.  Luck was the saving factor, but if no one was there to see it the result would have been the same just no peanut gallery.  Sometimes we just don't know enough or are impulsive and make bad decisions.  It's bad for everyone involved but can be an opportunity to do better.  I have made bad decisions and gotten lucky, I will hopefully make less bad decisions in the future.  Most of us have at some point, don't be a public dick about it just to throw out negative vibes unproductively.

What can we learn from this and prevent a potential repeat:

-Avy reports are more than a red, yellow, green traffic light.  The mother nature is not fair and gives no fucks what a report says.  
-If an avalanche comes down a route, it does not mean all that could slide has slid and now it is safe to go on.  SH ripped approx 6x through the day.
-We are SO lucky to have the work the forecasters offer, they deserve so much appreciation, but only YOU are responsible for the decisions YOU make.
-Avy conditions change quickly especially with any abrupt change in conditions of temp, wind, and precip.  20˚ to 45˚ in a matter of hours is too much.
-With many ice climbs you cant see the danger that looms above, similarly to a flash flood in a slot canyon. Become aware of the bigger picture not just whats in view. Get on google earth to see the topography.
-If one partner has concern over safety conditions, express it, listen, and bail to climb another day.
-If other parties are expressing concern over potentially deadly conditions, at least consider the possibility they might be right before deciding what's next
-If you see climbers in a potentially dangerous situation, say something kindly first, then say it very honestly if needed. It's not worth regretting that silence later out of concern for sounding like an asshole in the moment.
-The price of gear is relative, bailing off a screw to get down quicker would be a lot cheaper than ER or worse.  It's just stuff.
-People often jump in river to save someone drowning, then everyone drowns.  Don't try to be a hero if you're going to end up the victim instead.

I am sure there are many more points that could be contributed.  

Personally ice climbing offers some of the most beautiful and meaningful experiences of my year.  I hope those guys get back on the horse when they are ready, they'll never make the same mistake again.

Both the Fang and the 5th pitch of Stairway have fallen off this year in similar temps with people watching...toproping underneath that is NOT safe even though it doesn’t have a drainage above it.

Luke, in general Stairway is rather safe from any ave danger. The only day I have been concerned about something coming down was the day a deer fell from above the third pitch. It was quite gruesome. Years ago I stood in the old parking lot for Bridal Veil and found the truck belonging to two climbers who were camped at the base. They escaped through the vent in the top of the camper shell. The ave danger for all of these climbs is well known. Unfortunately some do not pay attention or are ignorant. I usually figure if the skiing is good, the ice sucks (avy danger). If the skiing sucks, the ice is good. Some days both suck and the golfing is good.

Let's let it go and be glad we are all safe and that our apprenticeship as Alpinist continues on.

Allen Sanderson wrote: I usually figure if the skiing is good, the ice sucks (avy danger). If the skiing sucks, the ice is good. Some days both suck and the golfing is good.

The golfing is never good.

Went into Maple Canyon today. Several solid and well protected lines along the Main Road. The ice is never as thick as you wish, so if sewing it up is your thing, bring an assortment of screws, including stubies.

Went up into Left Canyon. That is the land of what ifs. Some neat stuff up there but most are just not there yet unless you are Will Gadd.

While back in Left Canyon I did note a number of alpine lines of thick WI 2/3 Ice and snow climbing between ice lines that would be fun for emerging alpinist. Wait for cold temps to do these so you have solid snow climbing. Also be prepared to down climb and or rap from trees.

In general there is plenty of snow and water up there to make fat ice, but the temps just are not low enough to develop the various climbs to their fullest potential. A week long cold snap would make a huge difference.

Enjoy and climb safely.

Nunns Park is currently closed by UDOT and UHP for avalanche work in Provo Canyon. Avalanche work will begin today at 1:00 p.m.  and the entire canyon will be closed till 2 or 3:00 p.m.

Mtn Ape XL wrote: Nunns Park is currently closed by UDOT and UHP for avalanche work in Provo Canyon. Avalanche work will begin today at 1:00 p.m.  and the entire canyon will be closed till 2 or 3:00 p.m.

Not only is the road closed from 1 pm to 2 pm today, but the backcountry on both sides of the highway is closed from 7 am to 2 pm. "Terrain on both sides of Hwy 189 between Glen Canyon and Vivan Park. Big Provo Cirque on Timpanogos to Cascade Summit."

Donorcicle in Joe's Valley as of 2/3/19

Moves off the ground of CCC Falls, Pitch 1--2/3/19. Any one ever climb a potato chip?

Allen Sanderson wrote:...The ave danger for all of these climbs is well known. Unfortunately some do not pay attention or are ignorant. I usually figure if the skiing is good, the ice sucks (avy danger). If the skiing sucks, the ice is good. Some days both suck and the golfing is good.

Good rule of thumb. Good day today to ski low angle southerly runs, and tomorrow too. Or climb avalanche free zone.

Anyone available to climb during the week, next week, at Joe's please PM me.

LCC avy closure includes the GWI terrain.  Sounds like evidence of a fairly large slide down the ice with evidence observed yesterday.

Be darn careful out there.  I'd probably avoid ice in any location having ANY avy hazard for the next few days at least.

From UDOT:

Coalpit #1,2,3, and 4 chutes to Perla's Ridge along with the terrain above and on the Great White Icicle from the road to the ridgeline.  

Estimated re-opening 4pm today.

Went up to look at GWI last night (we were thinking about skiing it) Ice is still there but i had some trouble orienting myself because a lot of the trees i usually use as land marks are gone and there is a large amount of debris at and around the base with many mature trees having been snapped into pieces. We walked over to the walk off area and it looks like that probably slid ~monday ish. I would definitely wait for things to settle out and be VERY cautious about going up when things warm up because that slope has definitely re-loaded because there were a few inches of snow on all the debris.
The reminder stands for any of the wasatch ice climbs with snow above them, as things warm up and the sun comes out watch out for wet slides!
On a positive note, all the pitches still looked in and good to go once things settle out!

Haha the GWI doesn't have any avy danger!! JK like I said previously we saw ACT and Angel of Fear area 'slide' enough times last Saturday that foremost precautions should be taken for a while on anything in the Wasatch - 5" of water weight and the winds we had since Saturday will do weird things to the snowpack.  Not a bad idea to carry avy gear with you for a couple days if plan on going out.