Giant City State Park Retro-Bolted!

Just a thought as we are discussing saving the trees at the top (which I agree with) The cliff base environment gets way more destroyed than the top. Have you ever seen the difference between a virgin cliff vs what it looks like 1,2,3 years after it’s developed for climbing and become regularly visited? Some cliff bases get trampled from grassy forest to wasteland where no seed can find  purchase.  If it were about protecting the environment, they could ban climbing all together and save the vegetation at the top AND bottom. I’d say this is more about recognizing that climbing is a popular activity in our day and age and so they decided to manage it as an intended use and  recreation resource.

 If it were just about protecting plants and trees Likely, climbing wouldn’t be allowed anywhere. 

Happy for you all locals to get some more sport routes in your area and happy to hear the land manager is seeing climbing as a resource and not a hassle. 

This is where being thoughtful about land management and impact is important, such as creating clear and established trails and educating people about staying on them.  Sometimes a bolt or two can actually reduce impact if it means avoiding people walking around at the top of the cliff.  If you’re wondering what it looks like when people DON’T follow this, take a visit to the East Bluff at Devil’s Lake.

This should not be a difficult conversation. If the park really wants people to stay out of the cliff top environment then there are really only two options. Those are bolting the routes, or outright ban on climbing. It is that simple, and is not about styles, first ascents or personal egos. 

Doug Hemken wrote: If it's not your sole achievement, and you don't live within 5 miles of it, then it can't possibly have value you to and you can't possibly have a point?

How is this relevant? Let the man have an opinion. You yourself have posted very similar comments about Mississippi Palisades and you don’t live there, climb there, or have established routes there. 

Here’s my 2 cents...

As far as this thread goes, I wish it turned out as positive as I hoped for it to be. My intentions were to share some good climbing news with the MP users, build excitement about bolting at Giant City, and in return, get people psyched to check it out. The fact that people are upset is unfortunate, but we wanted to do it, we pushed to do it, and got permission to do it, and I say it’s great now that it’s done. 

The fact that Joe Healy has taken such a staunch stance in opposition of this project, mainly the bolting of the route City Limits, makes me respect the hell out of him. Knowing this, I actually ventured out and personally visited/climbed with him this summer at his local crags near Portland. He’s a stand up guy who is still getting after it and I tip my hat to you sir.

Everyone else can have an opinion too, but I’d like to see an end to people quantifying who has authority and who does not.

The bolts are installed, the routes have been brushed clean, and the place is back open for business. I climb there all the time. If your interested, message me and I’d love to take you out. In the meantime this conversation is over and the retrobolting is done. Give it a rest.

But keep your eyes peeled for more climbing news in the Midwest....

Dave Hug wrote:

How is this relevant? Let the man have an opinion. You yourself have posted very similar comments about Mississippi Palisades and you don’t live there, climb there, or have established routes there. 

You are right, I generally object to people who know pretty much nothing about an area intoning strongly prescriptive pronouncements about what the locals should do and how they should think.  Healy has not been local in a long time, but he certainly has some understanding of the local environment and history.  I do not think he owns the route at the center of this pissing match, but I do think his opinion is relevant.

Should you let me make the final decision on how to manage Giant City - no.  Should you let me tell you what factors I think are relevant in deciding how to manage Giant City?

Dave Hug wrote: Here’s my 2 cents...

As far as this thread goes, I wish it turned out as positive as I hoped for it to be. My intentions were to share some good climbing news with the MP users, build excitement about bolting at Giant City, and in return, get people psyched to check it out. The fact that people are upset is unfortunate, but we wanted to do it, we pushed to do it, and got permission to do it, and I say it’s great now that it’s done. 

The fact that Joe Healy has taken such a staunch stance in opposition of this project, mainly the bolting of the route City Limits, makes me respect the hell out of him. Knowing this, I actually ventured out and personally visited/climbed with him this summer at his local crags near Portland. He’s a stand up guy who is still getting after it and I tip my hat to you sir.

Everyone else can have an opinion too, but I’d like to see an end to people quantifying who has authority and who does not.

The bolts are installed, the routes have been brushed clean, and the place is back open for business. I climb there all the time. If your interested, message me and I’d love to take you out. In the meantime this conversation is over and the retrobolting is done. Give it a rest.

But keep your eyes peeled for more climbing news in the Midwest....

This, I think, is well said.  

the schmuck wrote: This should not be a difficult conversation. If the park really wants people to stay out of the cliff top environment then there are really only two options. Those are bolting the routes, or outright ban on climbing. It is that simple, and is not about styles, first ascents or personal egos. 

True dat

Patrick Rose wrote: Any plans to bolt by Devil's Stand Table?

Please tell me this is a joke? how about rising to the occasion rather than bringing the objective to your level.  

Eole ol wrote:

Please tell me this is a joke? how about rising to the occasion rather than bringing the objective to your level.  

Not joking at all.  If the goal is to protect the cliff top environment and improve/expand climbing access at Giant City then it seems reasonable to upgrade Devils's Standtable the same way the ICA has already upgraded Shelter 1. By installing anchors on the trad routes and bolting TR only routes for sport climbing you could fulfill both goals.  

I thought you were talking about bolting the route Chris's climb when you said the standtable.

Eole ol wrote: I thought you were talking about bolting the route Chris's climb when you said the standtable.

Honest mistake, no there are about a dozen routes listed in that area, half of them TR only. Those are the one's I'm talking about. I'm not interested in seeing trad routes bolted, though permanent anchors might be nice like the ICA did at Shelter 1 and Pere Marquette.

How accessible are the top anchors for setting up a TR? Been out of the game for over 10 years (due to joint issues) so at this point im only really comfortable with TR. So are there top anchors up top that you attach webbing to? Or is the anchors just the top of the bolted route and still on the vertical rock face where I would have to rappel to?    

dbldrew wrote: How accessible are the top anchors for setting up a TR? Been out of the game for over 10 years (due to joint issues) so at this point im only really comfortable with TR. So are there top anchors up top that you attach webbing to? Or is the anchors just the top of the bolted route and still on the vertical rock face where I would have to rappel to?    

If I'm not mistaken I believe there is a mixture of the 2. Some routes are accessible from above others would require a rappel.

Retrobolting City Limits?  Blasphemy.

I grew up watching and learning to boulder and solo at Shelter 1.  About a decade ago, my wife and I took our kids over to Cedar Bluff and ran into Adam Grosowski and his son.  It was wild to meet up after so many years.  Old farts telling lies about their youth...

So just got back from our trip to Giant City and it was a blast. As I said earlier I just got back into climbing after taking about 10 years off so I didnt feel confidant with leading and only wanted to top rope. The argument that if you dont want to use the bolts then dont use them is spot on. Because that was exactly what I did. With the exception of "the Scout" which was a 5.3 I used to get to the top of the bluff of Devils Standtable to set up my top rope for "Scales of Iron", and "Name Unknown" (also Set a top rope up for "Makanda Layback" at Shelter 1.)

I really dont understand the hatred for the bolts to be honest. It is a much better option, I had a few young climbers with me so I also set up "the Scout" for the little ones to get some climbing in, my 5 year old son loved it and was super excited lol. But it took no time at all to lead up the scout and set up a top rope using the chains at the top vs the time it takes figuring out what trees to use, if you have enough webbing, finding the correct spot at the top so your set up correctly for the climb you want to do, etc. I mean by the time you go to the top of the bluff and set up, you could of already climbed clipping into the bolts, set up the top rope at the top chains and had your second guy climbing before you finished setting up your webbing for a traditional top rope.

So thanks to the ICA for all the hard work setting up the bolts, hopefully next time im there my skill will be at a level I can use them! lol And for the people that dont like bolts.. go set up a top rope at the top, thats what I did and it worked great.

dbldrew wrote: So just got back from our trip to Giant City and it was a blast. As I said earlier I just got back into climbing after taking about 10 years off so I didnt feel confidant with leading and only wanted to top rope. The argument that if you dont want to use the bolts then dont use them is spot on. Because that was exactly what I did. With the exception of "the Scout" which was a 5.3 I used to get to the top of the bluff of Devils Standtable to set up my top rope for "Scales of Iron", and "Name Unknown" (also Set a top rope up for "Makanda Layback" at Shelter 1.)

I really dont understand the hatred for the bolts to be honest. It is a much better option, I had a few young climbers with me so I also set up "the Scout" for the little ones to get some climbing in, my 5 year old son loved it and was super excited lol. But it took no time at all to lead up the scout and set up a top rope using the chains at the top vs the time it takes figuring out what trees to use, if you have enough webbing, finding the correct spot at the top so your set up correctly for the climb you want to do, etc. I mean by the time you go to the top of the bluff and set up, you could of already climbed clipping into the bolts, set up the top rope at the top chains and had your second guy climbing before you finished setting up your webbing for a traditional top rope.

So thanks to the ICA for all the hard work setting up the bolts, hopefully next time im there my skill will be at a level I can use them! lol And for the people that dont like bolts.. go set up a top rope at the top, thats what I did and it worked great.

Excellent write up, thanks for the positivity!

dbldrew wrote: So just got back from our trip to Giant City and it was a blast. As I said earlier I just got back into climbing after taking about 10 years off so I didnt feel confidant with leading and only wanted to top rope. The argument that if you dont want to use the bolts then dont use them is spot on. Because that was exactly what I did. With the exception of "the Scout" which was a 5.3 I used to get to the top of the bluff of Devils Standtable to set up my top rope for "Scales of Iron", and "Name Unknown" (also Set a top rope up for "Makanda Layback" at Shelter 1.)

I really dont understand the hatred for the bolts to be honest. It is a much better option, I had a few young climbers with me so I also set up "the Scout" for the little ones to get some climbing in, my 5 year old son loved it and was super excited lol. But it took no time at all to lead up the scout and set up a top rope using the chains at the top vs the time it takes figuring out what trees to use, if you have enough webbing, finding the correct spot at the top so your set up correctly for the climb you want to do, etc. I mean by the time you go to the top of the bluff and set up, you could of already climbed clipping into the bolts, set up the top rope at the top chains and had your second guy climbing before you finished setting up your webbing for a traditional top rope.

So thanks to the ICA for all the hard work setting up the bolts, hopefully next time im there my skill will be at a level I can use them! lol And for the people that dont like bolts.. go set up a top rope at the top, thats what I did and it worked great.

Well, simply put, the ICA wasn't honest about their intentions, the history, or the traditions of climbing at Giant City - their sole objective from the start was retrobolting the cliff for sport climbing and pretty much everything after that is noise regardless. In talks with the park service they could have just as easily replaced/installed top anchors and called it good leaving climbing there as it had always been. That they wouldn't preserve a single route in its original condition on request by the FA is further telling of what really went on.

Healyje wrote: Well, simply put, the ICA wasn't honest about their intentions, the history, or the traditions of climbing at Giant City - their sole objective from the start was retrobolting the cliff for sport climbing and pretty much everything after that is noise regardless. In talks with the park service they could have just as easily replaced/installed top anchors and called it good leaving climbing there as it had always been. That they wouldn't preserve a single route in its original condition on request by the FA is further telling of what really went on.

How where they not honest with their intentions? It seems at least in this thread they spelled out there intentions and thats what they did. Am I missing something? 

How are the routes not in its original condition? Did they put bolts on holds or something? As far as my understanding they bolted the TR ones and left the Trads alone except adding chains at the top correct?