New and experienced climbers over 50 #4

 Was nice out at 7000 feet today 

Barb's got snow-otosis.  A little too much snow and not enough sunny days.  So we are looking at running down to ST. George, UT next week for a bit of a break.  We are looking at climbing Chuckwalla wall. Normally above our grade.  Having been there before I can say there isn't much opportunity to TR the wall.  There is nothing on the back side to anchor on to lower for a TR.  We have been doing pretty good in the gym so may be able to lead a 5.10, maybe.    So I am thinking we can set up a sitting belay from the backside, have Barb lowered and set a TR, then climb from the bottom.  I know it's not the "correct way" of climbing.  I know sitting belays are iffy, my 210 to her 130.  If nothing else we will spend a few hours in 65F vs our 32f here.  Both of us are committed to leading the 5.9 first. Bailer beenies are ready should we fail. I know all the experienced strong climbers are shaking their heads, but us newbs have to flail a little before we can be successful, so long as we don't hurt ourselves along the way.

P.S. Jeffrey I think I hate your guts, being aerial and warm.  Keep it up, I admire what you do and pictures you post.

Dallas

On a business trip many years ago, I meet some friends in St. George. We did Leopard Skin in Snow Canyon and then they wanted to do some sport climbing at Chuckwalla Wall.

We all thought that the climbs at Chuckwalla Wall were very softly graded. We did 5.10s and they felt like 5.8s to all 3 of us.

Note: We all were used to doing overhangs at the Gunks.

John

OldtradguyThis is for you John!  Solar Slab, car to car 4hours 10 minutes.  Expect to see you and Jean when the van is road worthy.  You might have to push a wheel chair around a bit though as I'm hurting a bit now.   Bud

Oldtradguy wrote: Dallas

On a business trip many years ago, I meet some friends in St. George. We did Leopard Skin in Snow Canyon and then they wanted to do some sport climbing at Chuckwalla Wall.

We all thought that the climbs at Chuckwalla Wall were very softly graded. We did 5.10s and they felt like 5.8s to all 3 of us.

Note: We all were used to doing overhangs at the Gunks.

John

Thanks John,  we were there once before and looking at the pics I am thinking we can do this.  Barb's freaking on "the grade". She's climb 10b in the gym and I am mock leading 5.9.  She is remembering our trip there a couple of years ago, we have strengthened somewhat since then.  It's only single pitch and we definitely know how to fail on single pitch, so we leave some booty for better climbers....   that's the way it goes...

The technique of tying two followers to the same rope 10-15 feet apart is sometimes called "end-roping."  It is a plausible technique for covering easy low-angle ground or short steps of harder climbing in the midst of scrambling.  But that's about it; there are too many downsides and dangers to make it a sensible choice for pitches of fifth-class climbing, where two ropes should be used, one for each second, and the seconds either climbing simultaneously in parallel (the leader has to lead trailing both ropes) or sequentially with one rope from leader to second and one rope from second to third.

It is obvious that, on steep ground, the bottom person of an end-roping pair shouldn't fall, as this will drag the upper person off, possibly quite violently, because it is very hard to keep all the slack out between the two and so the third will experience a bit of a leader fall with the impact transmitted directly to the second.  This means an elevated chance of injury for both followers and, if the rope runs over edges, an increased risk of damaging or severing the rope.  Then the impact of the two fallers comes on the belayer, who may never have had to deal with an impact of this sort and whose ability to function effectively has therefore never been tested.

Everyone gets to make their own choices, but personally, I think that adding even a hint of these additional risks for the minor comfort of carrying one rope for three people rather than two ropes is a very bad bargain.  Nor is this a good way to comfort an anxious beginner in the second position, since the third person should be staying below with very little slack in the 10-15 foot connection.  With the two climbers climbing in parallel on their own ropes, the more experienced person can help from below, alongside, or above the second.

We had a total end-roping fiasco in the Gunks a few years ago on High Exposure.  The leader went way up into the woods at the top and was almost completely out of earshot of the followers.  The crux of High E involves using a point of rock to get out from under a ceiling and onto the face above, after which the  climb moves left, placing the a climber directly above this overhang.  The second person on the rope negotiated this crux and moved left.  The third person---the one who isn't supposed to fall right?---fell of the  crux, penduluming under the overhang, dragging the second off and pinning them against the wall with no ability to move.  The leader, having made a poor choice of stance, was totally out of contact with the climbers, and in any case by moving up and back into the woods had used up the extra rope that would have been needed to lower the pair back to the starting ledge.  So the two followers are just hanging there, the higher one unable to move and the lower one spinning in space.  If the lower one knew how to prusik up the rope, they could have regained the face and the party could have extracted itself from this mess.  But the lower one didn't know how to do this or was too afraid to try or didn't have the gear needed, so a rescue was the only remaining alternative.

What happened next was not exactly the ideal.  The folks who came up to try to help placed some high gear under the ceiling and near to the dangling climber.  They got a rope through the gear and managed to throw an end to the climber.  The climber tied into the rope that had been passed to him and then cut his belay line (you read that right), taking a short and, as it turned out, inconsequential leader fall onto the gear placed by the "rescue party."  This freed the second, who proceeded to finish the route.

Dallas R wrote:

Thanks John,  we were there once before and looking at the pics I am thinking we can do this.  Barb's freaking on "the grade". She's climb 10b in the gym and I am mock leading 5.9.  She is remembering our trip there a couple of years ago, we have strengthened somewhat since then.  It's only single pitch and we definitely know how to fail on single pitch, so we leave some booty for better climbers....   that's the way it goes...

Dallas, when the going gets tough, the tough get clipsticks.

rgold wrote:

Dallas, when the going gets tough, the tough get clipsticks.

Rich

This is very very funny funny but true. I had to laugh at ready this.

We have a good friend, Ed, who was a trouble man for the electric company. He made us a clip stick that goes to about 32 feet. We have not used it yet, but will take it on our trip. I remember him using his and easily clipping the 2nd bolt from the ground. He did this a couple of times at Maple Canyon.

I was just thinking about it would have been great to have this long clip stick when I lead Sunshine at Seneca Rocks. At that time, I did not have any RPs with me. The bolt is about 30 off the ground. I did find a nut placement that I slotted in sideways a little before the bolt. I am glad that the bolt was there since the crux was right after the bolt on very small crimpers.

John

budman wrote:

Bud

Still working on van, have a problem with controller for solar, trying to figure what the problem is. All the electric wiring is done now. No leaks in roof (2 panels and 2 fans) so far. Will start today on trying to get walls up and then do the ceiling. If the weather cooperates then maybe 2-3 weeks have it road ready but not finished. It has been cold, raining and snowing.

Once the walls and ceiling are done (will have to paint walls, ceiling will be cedar), I can then hook up all the outlets and lights. I have cut out the sink and stove, will need to run the water to sink and connect propane to stove and small furnace. Last cut will be for drain for the sink. I hate cutting into the ceiling and side of the van. We will have 3 ways for the electric, solar, external electric and running from alternator.

Everything takes longer than you anticipate.

Jean just wants to get us on the now. I hope that you heal fast. I pulled something in my left forearm. Trying to climb hurts so I am taking some time off from climbing right now.

Picture below
Insulation, solar panels, both roof fans done.

Oldtradguy wrote:

Rich

This is very very funny funny but true. I had to laugh at ready this.

We have a good friend, Ed, who was a trouble man for the electric company. He made us a clip stick that goes to about 32 feet. We have not used it yet, but will take it on our trip. I remember him using his and easily clipping the 2nd bolt from the ground. He did this a couple of times at Maple Canyon.

John

Those are so cool.  We were sitting at Miguel's Pizza at the Red River Gorge last September (located on a main road) and the lineman were using one of those to, I presume, flip some type of connector in the line, which was easily 30 feet in the air.

rgold wrote:

Dallas, when the going gets tough, the tough get clipsticks.

We learned about clipsticks while at Smith Rock SP, there they were called stick clips.  Climbing with a couple of dirtbaggers  they eschewed our stick clip.  Our ropegun slipped before the first bolt, sprained his ankle.  The next time we saw them they were carrying a stick clip.  In the early days Barb carried a tent pole stick clip, it folds up to about a foot. We called it the cheater, you could generally reach the next bolt with it.  We still have it, but it's not used much anymore.  Our climbing skill progression has been very slow, but we do progress. 

Another fun doohickey for short people is the Kong Panic.  Saw a lady with one at COR last fall.  Verdict is still out as to whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.  I know the real answer is not more crap to carry, it's just getting stronger. 

Dallas R wrote:

We learned about clipsticks while at Smith Rock SP, there they were called stick clips.  Climbing with a couple of dirtbaggers  they eschewed our stick clip.  Our ropegun slipped before the first bolt, sprained his ankle.  The next time we saw them they were carrying a stick clip.  In the early days Barb carried a tent pole stick clip, it folds up to about a foot. We called it the cheater, you could generally reach the next bolt with it.  We still have it, but it's not used much anymore.  Our climbing skill progression has been very slow, but we do progress. 

Another fun doohickey for short people is the Kong Panic.  Saw a lady with one at COR last fall.  Verdict is still out as to whether it's a good thing or a bad thing.  I know the real answer is not more crap to carry, it's just getting stronger.

When I sport climb I'm a total fan of stick clipping and, also, I sometimes carry a cheater draw (like the Kong Panic but home-made) that allows me or my partners to clip up to bolts that we're having trouble reaching. The whole point of that is learning how to fail and bail upwards. Which lets you comfortably get on things that are above your grade and still keep going. I'm still learning how to push my comfort zone on sport climbs. Stick clipping the first or second bolts plus having a cheater makes me more willing to dive right in over my depth and go for it. Purists may scoff, but I learned those techniques from a really amazing climber who told me that's how he was able to push himself to that skill level in the first place. His exact words, "Get comfortable failing if you want to get good."