Lost Art of French Free + Falling: A Climber's Gamble

Sometimes French freeing ends up being more difficult than actuallyl climbing the route. Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

At what point does FF become proper aid? Clipping a two-footer and stepping on it? Seems like a grey line, but I would maintain that FF involves using your strength to climb the gear, whereas proper aid involves using mechanical advantage, etc, to climb the gear.

Good discussion, btw. 

Pulling on gear is not lost.  It may be an art form, but when you all hang your way up from piece to piece, it seems like a moot point.

 Climbing is a verb, indicating going up ... Hanging, also a verb, indicates depending*....

* de·pend, /dəˈpend/  verb . . .(or present participle): depending

1. 1.be controlled or determined by.
   . . . .  synonyms: be contingent on, be conditional on, be dependent on, hinge on, hang on, rest on, rely on; be decided by

oh yeah to this-

Mobes Mobesely wrote: God I love the "I've been climbing for xxx years and you sir are a moron" replies.

How many years does it take of climbing to break out that specific reply? Rgold, goldsmith, healy and tut have all used it in the last 24 hours. I think it's worth a new thread, maybe a blog or podcast!

Hey Top Roper,                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                                    My folks were Austrian. The story goes that before I was 2 years old, I crawled with one or the other leg straight, A doctor in Lexington Ma, diagnosed that I was fine, just in a hurry to walk. I was trying to copy what I saw & keep up with my 3 yr old sister who got to swing on the ropes.

 So my parents, hearing this, & with the standards of child abuse being non-existent in the mid-60s,  I was tied in & rather than just swing -  I climbed....

 And you, sir, are missing out; stupid for not recognizing

the great rock I offered to share with you.(I know, why bother, given all the choices, close to home)

 So to answer your question, 30 yrs plugging gear, minimum.....(Sorry, just standing  in the old-pro climber fold)
edit:
 Happy ... 2019 !
Mobes,
Yup, what you say is all true. Except its not all on the side of Rt7, there is some High-Quality short stone in the 'hood.

Suburban Roadside wrote:

Hey , Top Roper, my folks were Austrian. The story goes that before I was 2 years old, I crawled with one or the other leg straight, A doctor in Lexington Ma, diagnosed that I was fine, just in a hurry to walk. I was trying to copy what I saw & keep up with my 3 yr old sister who got to swing on the ropes.

 Hearing this, & the standards of child abuse being non-existent in the mid 60s,  I was tied in & rather than just swing -  I climbed....
 And you, sir, are missing out; stupid for not recognizing the great rock I offered to share with you.(I know, why bother, given all the choices, close to home)

 So to answer your question, 30 yrs plugging gear, minimum.....(Sorry, just standing  in the old-pro climber fold)

Seems to me I offered to rope up with you once and you were denied permission from your mommy/ wife/boss. Plus driving more than 20 minutes for pebble pinching on the side of the highway isn't enough to get me away from the comforts of Yokelville . As the internet goes, annoying as it is to see people blowharding on the internet for some kind of n00b teaching badges, I could still probably have a good time climbing with anyone here, even healy.

French freeing is an art and one I always keep in the bottom of the tool box, luckily I have another couple of years of attempting to onsight granite lines that are near my level of punting!

Yes not falls are safe, but that's just the nature of climbing isn't it? As Cedar Wright said, "it's not golf". Not all falls are safe, but with some experience most are and it would be terribly limiting to climb your entire life not taking falls because a handful of "freak" accidents have occurred due to falling. *insert driving/car crash analogy here*

 I have a really hard time seeing french freeing as being useful in preventing dangerous falls though. Usually dangerous falls implies lack of gear and french freeing wouldn't really help anything. If the falls are dangerous due to the existing gear being hard to place/finnicky/sketchy you'll probably just get pumped and end up aiding if it really is that serious.

 That being said, I'll definitely start pulling on gear when it starts getting dark and I still have 5 pitches to go. Is it still satisfying getting to the summit? yes. Is it as satisfying as cleanly freeing the whole route? nope. 

abandon moderation wrote: ...should be protected against.

...either don't take risks or learn to manage them.

Never having been a proponent of the unfathomably incomprehensible and stupid "the leader must not fall" school of trad climbing - this ^^^ pretty much wraps up the whole discussion in a nutshell for me.

Healyje wrote:Happy to...

Why could you not have started with this? This is a useful analysis that speaks to your expertise. To once again quote rgold from another thread, who expressed my point better than I could:

rgold wrote: My view is that credibility is or ought to be based on the reasoning we supply, not our resumes.  If this makes us less convincing, so be it---we shouldn't be any more convincing than the explanations we are able to provide anyway.  And if a beginner makes a good case for something, maybe we should pause in our well-worn tracks and consider whether they have come up with something we missed.

So Joe, you still have not addressed the question: could you see in that moment of roping up prior to your ground fall that your judgement was poor and could yield undesirable results? I don't believe you could distinguish between judgement on the ground vs on the rock if you were “out of my frigging mind that day”, but prove me wrong. Are you an expert in psychology too? Here's an article from the American Psychological Association discussing Why We Overestimate Our Competence - link.

I think an important takeaway is "the least competent performers inflate their abilities the most", and per your numbers, most of us are incompetent and thus at higher risk of overestimating abilities. We do not have the infallible judgement and gear placement skills that you’re blessed with, so we must keep reality in check that our judgement could be off without being able to sense it.

XX amount of years doesn't justify or excuse acting like you're better than everyone else; that is still arrogance. A teacher must remember their character is equally important as the value of the lessons, along with the greatest lessons may come from the student. You wrongly assume the nature of my climbing: of the 391 pitches I've led in my short 24-month leading career, only 43 had bolts (excluding anchors, and my apologies for the lack of grace in spraying numbers - not sure how else to quantify it). I am a student of traditional climbing and eager to learn from those with your expertise, but not from those with your pretension.

 

Jaren Watson wrote:
Unfortunately, some people are under the impression that because everyone has a right to participate in a discussion, that implies everyone’s ideas hold equal weight. This is foolish.

It is foolish to believe anyone’s word without questioning every part of it and demanding conclusive reasoning, regardless of who is saying it. The weight of anyone’s comment is in the eye of the reader, even if the writer claims otherwise.

Andy W. You seem intent on flogging what for the rest of us is a dead horse. Yeah, many climbing injuries are the result of falling. Many horseback riding injuries are caused by falling. Many skiing injuries are caused by falling. Yet, despite that, many people continue doing sports they love that involve a risk of falling related injuries.

Can't speak for you but if I were so terrified of falling that avoiding it became my #1 priority, well, climbing wouldn't be on my list of favorite activities.

I've got nothing against your desire to French Free. Have at it. It's a good skill to have. I don't see it becoming the widely accepted version of rock climbing for most people.

Fritz Nuffer wrote: Sometimes French freeing ends up being more difficult than actuallyl climbing the route. Or maybe I'm just doing it wrong.

At what point does FF become proper aid? Clipping a two-footer and stepping on it? Seems like a grey line, but I would maintain that FF involves using your strength to climb the gear, whereas proper aid involves using mechanical advantage, etc, to climb the gear.

Good discussion, btw. 

If you pull on something other than rock for upward progress, that is an aid move - whether it is gear, a tree, the rope, etc.  I'm not saying it is wrong do do it, it just isn't a free-climbing move.  Pulling on gear is A0/C0.

Josh Lipko wrote:

If you pull on something other than rock for upward progress, that is an aid move - whether it is gear, a tree, the rope, etc.  I'm not saying it is wrong do do it, it just isn't a free-climbing move.  Pulling on gear is A0/C0.

wait, tree's are aid? there goes a few of my redpoints... 

E Mann wrote:

wait, tree's are aid? there goes a few of my redpoints... 

Trees are definitely still free. Plenty of climbs where you have to go over or through a tree. 

I’m pretty sure there’s a difficult to avoid tree on serenity - sons, for example.

Alexander Blum wrote: I’m pretty sure there’s a difficult to avoid tree on serenity - sons, for example.

Or have you ever seen someone climb Flower of a High Rank without touching the tree?

abandon moderation wrote: you're saying not to fall if you want to minimize risk. 

Thanks for the constructive response. I suppose the root question I’m driving at is how to manage the risks of falling, but this is a basic question addressed in textbooks. I’m looking for a higher level of critical discussion that considers how well principles apply in practice, what the human factor affects, and where it lies in overall risk management. Risk management is a complex skill that requires experience to develop but discussion is still part of the learning process. Thoroughly understanding the nuances of each component and its contribution to the larger equation before leaving the ground helps me quickly, calmly, and accurately assess and manage multiple risks in real time.

So I have been playing devil’s advocate with the risks of falling. If something is undeniably true, i.e. falling is safe, it should be apparent by how easy it is to prove. I’m not suggesting the risk is enough to stop climbing but it is a critical piece that deserves our attention. All risks and skills to manage them should be reviewed regularly.

I do not dispute that a fall can be safe if all the appropriate precautions are executed correctly, but I question how capable humans are of consistent perfect execution. I have taken falls without injury so I obviously knew enough to protect it adequately, but the more I learn of all the intricacies the more I realize how little I knew and how much there is still to learn. The more advance we become the more vigilant we must be to not be complacent. Rappelling errors by the most experienced are a great example of experts losing sight of and failing to manage present risks.
 
I agree managing risk is an important skill, as is trust in your gear, and both more important than pulling on gear. However, learning to recognize where improvement is needed and how to improve existing skills (break the old dog new tricks cycle) is perhaps even more important. Personal experience, climbing partners, and textbooks provide a bulk of information but do not always give opposing or alternate viewpoints. This is the greatest thing MP has to offer and the only reason I participate; the chance to learn something new and valuable.
 
I also advocate getting stronger is the main goal, but as suggested up thread overuse injuries are rampant so I keep intense training to a minimum and must be patient with my strength development. I've found slowly gaining strength from continual climbing and occasional bouldering has provided steady improvement. My first summer I was maxed leading 8s and hesitant to pull thru 10-; last summer I led 9s clean and quickly frenched 10+ a dozen pitches off the deck. I greatly apologize for spraying those numbers, but it demonstrates my free climbing and french freeing ability are improving together and allowing me to push grades while minimizing certain risks at the times of my choosing. Good gear is obviously critical, both for safe falls and french freeing, so regardless I'm judicious in route selection and gear placement.

The part of french freeing I enjoy most is the game of how minimal a piece you can pull on. I think this relates to the art and pleasure aid climbers derive from setting tricky pieces, but with a speed element added. I am enamored with the science and art of placing gear. To improve these skills I enjoy aid practice on solo TR, placing as questionable of a piece I can find, testing it’s merit with weight, and doing so as quickly as possible. I believe every new leader should do this (minus the speed) to learn creative placements and the margins of their gear. Despite many people suggesting tugging on gear takes away success, what defines success specific to each climber can be as unique as the tactics they use.
 
 

Señor Arroz wrote: [worthless contributions]

You seem averse to constructive discussion. By definition a forum is a place where ideas can be exchanged and MP is notorious for discussing topics ad nauseam. If you think the horse is dead provide links to where it has been beaten. Simply denying something needs to be proved proves nothing and maybe suggests it's not so easy to prove. If you don't want to think that hard or see your beliefs questioned, don't read the thread.
 
Kindly point out where I mention anything about fear. You won't find it. This discussion and my choice to french free is not driven by fear but by a logical deduction that not falling minimizes one risk when there are many others to be managed. It’s the age old mountaineers’ concept, minimize exposure to easily manage risk.

Since you like cross sport references, I’ll explain my risk management background. I grew up on motorcycles which is arguably a higher risk sport than climbing. Most riders, at least the wise ones, accept (regarding accidents) it's not IF but WHEN. That’s because every second on the bike is exposing the rider to continual risk, much like driving a car but a car is designed to protect the human body. If a motorcycle rider goes down, it is nearly guaranteed their body will make contact with something hard. Acknowledging this risk doesn’t stop riders from getting on a bike (myself included), but maintaining awareness of the constant risk helps keep a rider on high alert and hopefully prevent a crash from happening.

Discussing risks of falling is far more worthwhile than if pulling on a tree is aid -- why do you care what other people think is free or clean? Insecure in your own views or worth? Once you stop caring what others think, you’re free to define it as you wish because it will only be used to compare against yourself.

This hasn't been a constructive discussion for a few pages - you are just spinning your wheels.

Alexander Blum wrote: This hasn't been a constructive discussion for a few pages - you are just spinning your wheels.

I'm well aware many MP users like yourself have nothing of value to contribute, but just the chance someone will share knowledge or further the discussion makes it well worth putting it out there.