New and experienced climbers over 50 #4

Lori, I know I'm a dinosaur and haven't climbed outside since 2009, but I find all the diagrams and methods confusing. Others can jump on me for this, but I suggest two basic rules. First, clip into the anchor(s) with one or more slings before you go off belay. Second, if you're going to untie from the rope, clip a bight of the rope into the anchor(s) or your harness before you untie (making sure there's enough rope between you and the bight to rethread the anchors). Then set up whatever you want.

Wendy if anyone jumps on you they're idiots.......The problems (and solutions) with threading and re-tying at anchors is a direct result of the adoption of the gym/sport tactic of lead and lower........outdoors.

Without fixed draws to clip and lower from.

The real solution is outfit all sport style lowering (and trad) belay/rap anchors with rams horns or at the the least fixed steel biners to lower from eliminating the need to untie or thread to get your rope down.

Since nobody tops out and walks off anymore......

Zing out......

Wendy, there is no requirement to learn such things from diagrams, and what exactly is confusing about the segment from 3:35 to 5:10 of the AAC video?  

The "threading the bight" method has the advantage that the rigger is never off belay, and doesn't have to remember to tie off their rope as a separate but absolutely critical initial step.

 The AAC  video is kind of funny if you look at it carefully the anchors different almost every cut it was filmed at Tick rock  The girl in the video I have Climb with  she did not do so well kind of went snail eyed  at one of my crags in the Sierras did not lead  anything. 

rgold wrote: Wendy, there is no requirement to learn such things from diagrams, and what exactly is confusing about the segment from 3:35 to 5:10 of the AAC video?  

The "threading the bight" method has the advantage that the rigger is never off belay, and doesn't have to remember to tie off their rope as a separate but absolutely critical initial step.

I find the switching knots of the bight method confusing. Maybe if I actually did it myself it would become less so. For me, clipping in with a sling, as shown  in the video, was always the first step. Nest step depended on whether I was setting up an anchor or lowering.  

wendy weiss wrote:

I find the switching knots of the bight method confusing. Maybe if I actually did it myself it would become less so. For me, clipping in with a sling, as shown  in the video, was always the first step. Nest step depended on whether I was setting up an anchor or lowering.  

It's really easy, Wendy. My typical sport clean involves clipping in with a PAS or an extra QD. Then I pull a bight through the chains or rings. Figure 8 it and secure to my belay loop with locker or two opposed regular biners. Then untie my original tie-in and pull it through. You stay on belay the whole time and can't possibly drop the rope. 

Señor Arroz wrote:

It's really easy, Wendy. My typical sport clean involves clipping in with a PAS or an extra QD. Then I pull a bight through the chains or rings. Figure 8 it and secure to my belay loop with locker or two opposed regular biners. Then untie my original tie-in and pull it through. You stay on belay the whole time and can't possibly drop the rope. 

I get what you're saying, and maybe if I did it, it would be obvious. But watching the video, I worry that I'd untie the wrong knot. That's the mistake I can imagine with this system. Oh well, it's moot now. Heading to the gym in about a half hour.

wendy weiss wrote:

 But watching the video, I worry that I'd untie the wrong knot. 

One is a knot tied into your hard points. The other is a locking carabiner clipped to your belay loop. Very hard to confuse them. And that's why you check your work. 

wendy weiss wrote:

I get what you're saying, and maybe if I did it, it would be obvious. But watching the video, I worry that I'd untie the wrong knot. That's the mistake I can imagine with this system. Oh well, it's moot now. Heading to the gym in about a half hour.

As Senor says, the new knot is attached via locking carabiners, so there is only one possible knot in the hard points to untie.  Moreover, in order to make the mistake, you'd have to untie the knot you just tied as the very next step.  And finally, since the system always keeps you on belay, if you did somehow make the mistake and untie the wrong knot (in spite of all the obvious things keeping that from happening), then you don't die (although if you unclipped your tether and leaned back without first testing whether you were being held, you would drop a bit because of the slack used to tie the knot on the bight).

rgold wrote:

As Senor says, the new knot is attached via locking carabiners, so there is only one possible knot in the hard points to untie.  Moreover, in order to make the mistake, you'd have to untie the knot you just tied as the very next step.  And finally, since the system always keeps you on belay, if you did somehow make the mistake and untie the wrong knot (in spite of all the obvious things keeping that from happening), then you don't die (although if you unclipped your tether and leaned back without first testing whether you were being held, you would drop a bit because of the slack used to tie the knot on the bight).

Senor, and rgold, I also like being tied directly into my harness. The fewer biners, the better. My version of KISS.   

s.price wrote: Just want to apologize to Jeffery for my comments upthread.
I took it wrong and made uncalled for and unnecessary comments.
Sorry about that.

Everybody has a bad day FWIW, I laughed when I read it......maybe I should apologize too.....

rgold wrote:

..I would add that, no matter how many times you've discussed what will happen, the climber being lowered should remain tethered to the anchor while weighting the rope, and it should be clear that they are actually being held on belay before the tether is removed...

Exactly.  Also, I find it easier to clean a route while being lowered.  I find it can be a real hassle abseiling and trying to remove quick draws at the same time...

John Barritt wrote:

Everybody has a bad day FWIW, I laughed when I read it......maybe I should apologize too.....

I'm sorry, but I'm not going to apologise.  Whoops, I think I just did!   

s.price wrote:

Sitting in the 3rd world having 1st world problems ( waiting for a crucial part for the sailboat) had me feeling ornery. Still uncalled for. 

You know what nobody ever talks about? The second world......it's always third world this, first world that.....

Whatever happened to the second one?

If your boat was in OK I'd have it running again in no time....200 mph tape, bailing wire and some zip ties.

The jib is up.....AND GONE!

Lori Milas wrote: Reading through all these posts, and having taken one last class with Ryan yesterday, in the midst of a miserable cold/flu... I realized I'm done for the moment.  Learned all I can learn from here, so it's time to go CLIMB.  Just climb.  Joyful day!     (finally can take Jeff's advice... talk less, climb more.)

Somewhere in the middle of that Ryan session I finally realized the large number of things that can go wrong on the simplest climb.  It probably won't happen, but people do get stuck... if only for awhile.  And so my one takeaway at this time is to have sugar on my person at all times.  Easy enough to do now that my consciousness is there... pockets stuffed with sugar, and a fanny pack, with a half sandwich and juice... so that if I ever find myself hanging off a tangled rope, waiting for a rescue, I can remain safe.  This I can do.

Zing!  

You learn all you can, practice what you can, these are tools in the toolbox, many you will never use.  Straight forward climbing is as easy as top roping in the gym when things go right.  It's having options for the wrong that we do the extra credit work for.  

Sugar, know what you know to prepare for your personal needs, wear the bracelet.  As a wilderness rescuer it is difficult to know why a person is unconscious. Bracelets gives the rescuer a heads up and to what might be happening.  

Dallas R wrote:

You learn all you can, practice what you can, these are tools in the toolbox, many you will never use.  Straight forward climbing is as easy as top roping in the gym when things go right.  It's having options for the wrong that we do the extra credit work for.  

Sugar, know what you know to prepare for your personal needs, wear the bracelet.  As a wilderness rescuer it is difficult to know why a person is unconscious. Bracelets gives the rescuer a heads up and to what might be happening.  

Well wild guess around here if someone is unconscious it’s probably the shrooms. Or serious moonshine. 

I’ve never worn a bracelet. Maybe I should. Wouldn’t all the gadgets like insulin pump and other stuff be a good clue? 
Good sugar control has just been an extra layer of stuff to think about...as much for who I’m with as for me.  

I think the bracelet is a good idea.  Under emergency conditions, rescuers might or might not be aware of things you carry with you, or you could be separated from them at some point.  The bracelet allows emergency personnel to log in to your medical profile and provides emergency contact numbers.

rgold wrote: I think the bracelet is a good idea.  Under emergency conditions, rescuers might or might not be aware of things you carry with you, or you could be separated from them at some point.  The bracelet allows emergency personnel to log in to your medical profile and provides emergency contact numbers.

rgold, Dallas.  You're right. So, I'll have to find a pretty one.  Deal.  (thank you) 

Last post deleted due to a lack of thumbs ups...... ;)

I had decided I was done mentoring young climbers long term, having gotten my kids raised (so to speak).

Scout outings only being two day deals, I get the enjoyment of teaching without long term time commitment. Even though it's a lot of work compared to teaching one or two people at a time.

One of my former Scouts has gotten into the gym scene at the old grain silos downtown.

His dad (my friend still, even though we're both out of scouting at the troop level) has asked me to mentor him outdoors, I think I'm going to start as soon as hunting season is over.

He's a good kid, always small for his age (18 now) but tenacious. He's a natural outdoors and always finished everything I ever put him on outdoors on scout trips. I feel like getting him into a ground-up mindset and solid on gear will serve him well down the line.

All that said, I hope some of you CA people (Arroz, et al) can blast over to JT and climb with Lori while she's there. I think she'd enjoy the opportunity to learn from you and possibly get that selfie with Jeff..... ;)

Hopefully all of you will have a nice holiday!