New and experienced climbers over 50 #4

Señor Arroz wrote:

I don't think the "less parts to fail" logic is actually statistically significant, but I do always try to clip my own gear directly into the bolts rather than chains, unless there is some other reason to clip down the chain. As someone stated above, you never want to clip into the last loop on a chain because that's the one with the biggest hole and the one that's easiest to thread a bight of rope through to clean or rap. 

And yet, that's where these things we've posted have the draws for top roping clipped. Of course, chains don't always have space to clip into, either. 

Which reminds me. Some one put in fresh chains on an anchor here, but, on the small side. If you didn't have a small or ibeam carabineer, you weren't clipping the chains at all.

Dunno what they were thinking, but, it reinforced to me to have at least a minimal set of stuff on my harness, for the inevitable surprises.

I've not heard of any anchor failures, personally, but my best friend has a scar across his wrist from being slashed open when a bolt failed. The first thing that failed was the little ledge he stepped on to. Then the bolt under him. Fortunately, he was well away from a ground fall, and had a partner who kept his cool.

Best, Helen

Old lady H wrote:

And yet, that's where these things we've posted have the draws for top roping clipped. 

I didn't want to pile on, but that drawing was terrible, even though the concept was good.

People who equip routes like sprice or constine can clarify, but I always thought the reason one hung multi-link chains at an anchor was to allow for one link at the bottom to wear out and then, like magic, there are still multiple links remaining. Saves having to continually replace anchors. I was never of the impression it was to give extra spaces to clip crap. I've always tried to clip my gear into the actual bolts. 

When the links wear out at the bottom change the entire chain,  easy!

Dallas R wrote: 
...So to keep it real I challenge Jeffrey, Carl and Senor to share one of their early day fails.  I know you have them, you can't do this without one...  

Ha ha.  Waddaya challenging me for?  I get why you're challenging Jeffrey and Senor, but I'm still a beginner! :-)

One time I got to the top of a sports climb, untied, threaded the rope, re-tied, then realised I hadn't actually threaded the rope at all (hence why I said I always always always ask the belayer to 'take' before I remove my protection, so I can weight the rope and check I'm on belay).  Anyway, had a bot of a freakout, but when I got down my belay said it's OK, even if you had fallen you would have only fallen to your first (i.e. the last before the chains) quickdraw.

Anyway, several days later I followed a sports route where someone had led it and NOT untied and threaded the rope, and I was unclipping the rope from the draws as I went.  So as I got to the top I had to re-thread with NO clipped draws below me.  Now I was REALLY intent on making sure I re-threaded properly, as if I'd got it wrong then it would spell disaster...

Señor Arroz wrote:

...I didn't want to pile on, but that drawing was terrible, even though the concept was good...

Oh alright the drawing's all fuc%ed up.  Tsk. Here's a better one.  And no, that's not a penis, it's a belay loop:

Carl Schneider wrote:

Oh alright the drawing's all fuc%ed up.  Tsk. Here's a better one.  And no, that's not a penis, it's a belay loop:

Funny parody on Free Solo and gym climbing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=dT1PlPmjeo0

Señor Arroz wrote:

Is that the anchor chains?

 looks more like a Chinese harness 

Carl Schneider wrote:

Is that the anchor chains?

This is sheer jealousy over your new bike.  (But I think it’s the cushy rear seat attachment for the chics to ride on). 

best belay porta-ledge.  D4 minime.

Jeffrey Constine wrote:

best belay porta-ledge.  D4 minime.

I just ordered the D4 Trapezium, should be getting it soon.  

Carl Schneider wrote:

 BTW I'm nervous about riding it, 

It's not that complicated, while riding on the street just assume every car out there is trying to kill you.  

When riding in the dirt, (I know this is going to sound corny) the rear wheel follows the front wheel.  But essentially if you place your front tire where you want to go the weight of the bike and friction/bounce of the rear wheel will follow that line. 

Señor Arroz wrote: healthy respect for basic safety practices and risk management from other sports. If you have those FUNDAMENTALS you will be able to figure your way through almost any situation that arises in the field. 

I second that, so much of the other things I have done in my life have prepared me for the technical side of climbing. 

rgold wrote: To clarify.

1. There are two strategies for threading the rope through top anchors in order to lower off.

Thanks for the clarification.  I had heard about "passing a bite" for cleaning an anchor, but never really made the effort to find out exactly what that was, as far as I was concerned rappelling was the "correct" method.  Now I see that passing a bite is a means of being lowered off of an anchor, no rappel. 

So in the last couple of years I see a change in philosophy/technique, and this is area specific as well.  First off I acknowledge getting lowered is safer than rappelling.  In areas that have an active climbing community the standard is for followers to get lowered off of the fixed gear and then pull the rope.  It's safer, but, there is also a greater amount of wear on the fixed gear. The reason that it works in areas with an active climbing community is there are folks that will take the time and spend the money to replace the fixed anchors should they become worn.  

Now the dark side, there are places where fixed gear was placed but no one maintains them. If every climber lowered off of these they would become unsafe, rappelling reduces the wear on these anchors and makes them last much longer.  

As in all of climbing good judgement must used based on the situation at hand.

 Big wall time Kevin 

Oldtradguy wrote:
Dallas...I thought of a funny situation now but not when it happened. ...John

Thanks for sharing John.  We learn from our trials, and being able to find humor during such times seems to make life more enjoyable.

Dallas R wrote:

Thanks for the clarification.  I had heard about "passing a bite" for cleaning an anchor, but never really made the effort to find out exactly what that was, as far as I was concerned rappelling was the "correct" method.  Now I see that passing a bite is a means of being lowered off of an anchor, no rappel. 

So in the last couple of years I see a change in philosophy/technique, and this is area specific as well.  First off I acknowledge getting lowered is safer than rappelling.  In areas that have an active climbing community the standard is for followers to get lowered off of the fixed gear and then pull the rope.  It's safer, but, there is also a greater amount of wear on the fixed gear. The reason that it works in areas with an active climbing community is there are folks that will take the time and spend the money to replace the fixed anchors should they become worn.  

Now the dark side, there are places where fixed gear was placed but no one maintains them. If every climber lowered off of these they would become unsafe, rappelling reduces the wear on these anchors and makes them last much longer.  

As in all of climbing good judgement must used based on the situation at hand.

In addition to judgement is the communication issue.  There have been quite a few accidents in which the belayer thought the person up there was going to rappel and the person up there expected to be lowered, leaned back, and fell to the ground.  The AAC video I posted puts the communication issue front and center---both party members should be absolutely clear about how the descent will be accomplished.

I would add that, no matter how many times you've discussed what will happen, the climber being lowered should remain tethered to the anchor while weighting the rope, and it should be clear that they are actually being held on belay before the tether is removed.

Although it has become conventional wisdom, even dogma, that lowering is safer than rappelling, I am far from convinced, given the number of lowering accidents. (I know, there are rappelling accidents too when the rappeller only partially threads their device or goes of an end because the ropes are uneven or too short.)  But in lowering, two people who may be in poor communication range have to get it right, whereas in rappelling it is solely up to the person descending, a situation I like philosophically as well as operationally.  But I'm in the minority on this and certainly don't want to change anyone's mind.

Reading through all these posts, and having taken one last class with Ryan yesterday, in the midst of a miserable cold/flu... I realized I'm done for the moment.  Learned all I can learn from here, so it's time to go CLIMB.  Just climb.  Joyful day!     (finally can take Jeff's advice... talk less, climb more.) 

Somewhere in the middle of that Ryan session I finally realized the large number of things that can go wrong on the simplest climb.  It probably won't happen, but people do get stuck... if only for awhile.  And so my one takeaway at this time is to have sugar on my person at all times.  Easy enough to do now that my consciousness is there... pockets stuffed with sugar, and a fanny pack, with a half sandwich and juice... so that if I ever find myself hanging off a tangled rope, waiting for a rescue, I can remain safe.  This I can do.

Zing!  

Bring a whole sandwich, (and some mustard) somebody might be stuck with you ;)

I could tell my dropped rope story but I doubt it would add to the conversation.

Zing out.....